5 week old fry dying?

[phil56]

Hi Hooked,raising Discus is time consuming only if you make it that way or so i keep telling myself.Baby discus often have bad reaction to water changes even if the water going in is only slightly different.If you can't overcome problems(discus getting sick after water changes)Treat the water used for the change with Potassium permanganate for 24hours than neutralize with Hydrogen peroxide,adjust P.H and temperature.Baby discus actually all Discus thrive in this treated water.
Dropping the P.H to 5.5 will help with bacterial infections,use a U.V and if you don't overfeed you don't need to do a water change for 2weeks.
watch the P.H and adjust with Bi-carb.Feed live brine shrimp then discus flakes and pellets ground to powder,grab a pinch hold under the water and sprinkle over baby discus,remove uneaten food later.Some baby discus will eat themselves to death so limit the amount of food.
Food mixes pollute the water faster than anything else creating bacterial booms that nail your discus.Mixes come later.warning I am a great believer in garlic but too much in a food mix for baby discus blows up their stomachs like a balloon.
Jack wattley use to throw copper sponges into his tanks to control most problems,works very well,but in acid water you have to be careful or too much copper leaches out and can kill all the fish.I use U.V probably because im too lazy to do copper test all the time,although their may be times when copper is necessary as many diseases can be transmitted from the baby brine shrimp.Some people soak Problem( some brands are noted for carriers of velvet disease) B.B in medication before use.
Hope this helps good luck.

[ILLUSN]

I remember reading the PP treatment of water in a an aging drum back in the days of discusworld in queensland, anychance you could give a step by step Phil, might just be what i need to get my altums to go.

[Hooked]

Hi Phil56,

Very interesting. A step by step would be great. Yep, I need to get a UV and perhaps not change the water so much and often. Give it time to settle down a bit.
Things were going ok the last couple of weeks until I spent the last week shifting my home and business. All my fish are now stressed due to the relocation.
Yeah, I hear you when you say "only if you make it that way". In all honesty I know I have tended to over feed. Also its usually late by the time I'm free of the work day and have been syphoning buckets in and out instead of running transfer pumps etc to keep the noise down which takes forever.
I appreciate the info, thanks mate,

Cheers

[phil56]

Hi guys
Here in Hervey Bay you can be sure your Discus will get sick after a water change,never see so many bacterial infections pop up from nowhere,At first I tried R.O water which involved a lot of waste and took to long for the amount of water I needed.Another Discus breeder 18years ago who was a retired chemical engineer(this guy came in handy)advised of this method of De bugging the water,which solved most of my problems with water.All you have to do is fill a tub with tap water which will supply your needs.I used 500 to 1000lt tubs,don't declorinate,as this will also neutralize the potassium permanganate,add about one sixth of a teaspoon,so the water is a medium purple than leave for a minimum of 24hours,once i tried it in 12hours and the results were catastrophic,sick fish everywhere,no shortcuts.If the water turns brown within the 24hours the P.P.is spent and not working,this means there is too much organic waste in the water,and a solution needed(may be filtering through carbon etc)although most tap water is satisfactory.After 24hours add about 30mils of Hydrogen peroxide(3or6%)sold in coles,chemist etc.) like magic the water will turn crystal clear.At the start Use a airstone or power head to circulate the water.
Than adjust the P.H. using hydrochloric acid.(concrete cleaner,you can buy from bunnings)Add about 40mils,this may drop your P.H. to say 4,the next day it may be back up to 7,add more until it stays at about 2,than using Bi-carb raise it to 7,do this procedure a few times up and down stopping at 5.5,this will help stabilize the P.H.otherwise once in the tank a P.H. of 5.5 could drop to 2 overnight in crowed conditions.The more you play with it the longer it seems to hold at 5.5in the tank.so don't worry if you cant get the exact measurements right for a while.
Add a heater,when right pump to tank.
This may sound like it takes a lot of time,but it doesn't each procedure takes no more than a few second once your organized.
I hope I explained it well enough,I'm terrible at trying to get the message across typing.It never sounds like what i mean.
good luck.

[ILLUSN]

Thanks phil56 for posting the procedure, did you find any ill effects from the increased TDS from the acidification / neutrilisation cycle or did the extra TDS give the water the needed buffering capacity?

NaHCO3 + HCl = Na+, Cl- = salt correct (simplified version)?
as the H2O just forms more water and the CO2 is released in as gas?

or is the equilibrim more slanted towards the formation of CO3 2- (kH)? or H2CO3 (carbonic acid) in the presence of excess hydronium ions? either of these senarios will give the water some buffering capacity

sorry for the chemistry talk just trying to picture in my head how the water is changing chemicly as this something I want to try to do to get my Altums to spawn.

[Hooked]

Hi Phil,
Thanks mate for taking the time. I'm sure there's a lot of crew here getting a lot out of your recent posts. Especially newbies such as myself,

Cheers, mate

[phil56]

Hi Illusn,I've always assumed it was the TDS,although the other reactions could play a part,no real tests were made to check each chemical reaction as this method hes been so widely used for so long with out any problems.All were considered to miner to worry about,as is the buffing action,I found raising and lowering there was a longer period the P.H. held,but I'm talking only a few days instead of hours.This also may have also been because my tanks were so crowed.
The TDS though never rose above 150ppm. I think its a good idea to circulate the water a few days or so to let things settle chemically before use.
One thing to watch.To save on costs we bought hydrogen peroxide in a large drum at 50%,(what you buy at is woolworths 3%)One of the employes added the same amount of H.P.as usual but it was now 50% not 3% about 2000 Discus stomachs blew up like balloons and died.I tell the story so you will think before you add some extra H.P.
If your using the water for altums,which i'm very interested in,you may like to use a peat bomb to further lower the TDS.
A friend of mine use to breed them.He was very clear that the P.H never went above 5.
I hope I answered your Question at least to some extent.
Thanks Hooked,Glad I can help,I'm hoping if more people spread the right info the more people will keep them.

[ILLUSN]

Thanks Phil, I'll try and squeeze in another 500l drum and give it a go I have PP h202 HCl and peat on hand.

[Hooked]

Hi all!
Thanks to Phil56's recent posts my young discus are looking great and well on the road to recovery. I had a good look at what I was doing recently and I realised I had been overfeeding a little and this was feeding a bacterial problem which young Discus are very susceptible too.
I've done a few Potasium Permangenate baths so far over the last 12 days and as of tomorrow I will also be using the treated water that has been suggested by Phil in this and his other posts on the site.
I'm sure the young ones will further benefit from the treated change water and I'm hoping it may also do good things for the adults in my display tank. My Brown Spotted Butterfly parents have been peppering up over time in the display tank and I'm keen to see if they benefit from the treated water also. I'll let you know how I go.

Cheers