What would you do?

[TW]

My male Apistogramma Bitaeniata died last night & I'm terribly sad about that. He must have made one last valiant effort, because tonight when I got home from work, Mrs Bitaeniata brought out her free swimming fry.

This is her 2nd try. Last time, she lost her final remaining fry at 23 or 24 days.

It is really important to me that these fry have the best chance of survival, doubly so as it seems that my enquries today are that I probably will not be able to source a replacement male easily in Sydney Australia.

The only fish in the tank, other than mum & fry, are 2 otos. I think otos are strictly vegetarian, but someone told me they might eat the fry?

I'd really value knowing if anyone thinks I should:-

1. remove the otos
2. put the fry in a breeding net (but it would be still in the same tank)
3. Leave them with mum

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[Th0mas]

Mum should be able to fend off the otos, but better to pull them out to be sure.

Since she's proven with fry before, so it'll be safe to leave her with the egg. She'll hatch them and bring out the wigglers when the time is right (3 days to hatch, another 4-5 days to free swimmer). Make sure BBS is ready for them (as usual - live is best).

The three main reasons for apisto fry death are:

- prey from other fish (including inexperience parent)
- poor water
- hunger

I think the first two isn't a problem in your case, only the third one you'll need to watch out for. Parent fish who don't eat the youngs will not eat the carcass, so keep an eye out for dead fry in case of problem.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Thomas.

[TW]

Thanks Thomas, your 2 cents is worth a great deal.

They are already free swimming fry, more than last time. Last time, only ever saw 5 - this time a little better (but not great) at maybe 15 or thereabouts.

50% weekly water change so water is good, but she still may suffer from inexperience. Last time, one single fry made it to day 23 or 24 - but then just disappeared. So, she is yet to prove herself as totally successful.

I have frozen BBS (remember, you helped me out with a source to buy). I'm not allowed to set up another tank to hatch brine shrimp (hubby says no more electricity for tanks or accessories). Also no room in the tank itself either - plus would probably check out the additional power point in use.

Auburn is my closest source of live BBS, so I will try to get there after work tomorrow if I can.

I think you said you were close to Bankstown. Do you know another source around that area for live BBS? Majestic at Taren Point have live brine shrimp, but not the baby.

Thanks for response.

[wickedglass]

I'd go for another small tank for the fry if that option is available to you (I take it that, unfortunately, if you can't set up a bs hatchery, then another tank is out of the question, too) ... if not, then net them. I usually take the fry form the parents at 2 weeks at the latest, often, depending on the individual situation I take them as soon as they're wriggling and sometimes the eggs and rear them without parents. I've had decent success doing this. We feed mixtures of finely powdered flake (ground to dust in a coffee grinder and made into a paste with tank water), live bbs, frozen bbs and hard boiled egg yolk squeezed through a stocking and make a solution from that with tank water. Feeding takes place via a syringe with airline attached to the nozzle so it can be very localised.
I'm very lucky in that my partner not only encourages this hobby but takes an active interest in everything about it and comes up with great ideas and innovations. Lucky that she's just as much of a fish nut as I am.

[jim]

I would like to ask a question,

I have mine in a 80 ltr tank with top filter...(I have shorten the inlet pip to avoid suck to the fry)..they just lay eggs (around 40 - 50 of them..still in black little dots) and I already removed the male as soon as I saw the eggs (female was attacking the male).. The question is, how often I need to change the water. I try not to disturb the mum and frys...

Can I raise Apistos the same way as Krib? I have good sucess in raising Kribs....

Thanks

[Robdog]

I'd say that Kribs are probably better parents than Apisto's. Only because they both seem to care for the fry whereas apisto's have the mother tend to the fry and the dad guards the general area. But if dad gets too close or can't get away, look out!

[Th0mas]

I would like to ask a question,

I have mine in a 80 ltr tank with top filter...(I have shorten the inlet pip to avoid suck to the fry)..they just lay eggs (around 40 - 50 of them..still in black little dots) and I already removed the male as soon as I saw the eggs (female was attacking the male).. The question is, how often I need to change the water. I try not to disturb the mum and frys...

Can I raise Apistos the same way as Krib? I have good sucess in raising Kribs....

Thanks

How often to change is a difficult one to answer. Obviously the more the better but most will do what they believe is enough.

Comparing to krib fry, apisto fry isn't as hardy (and very dependant on species). They requires small fine food to start (BBS is popular) and uneaten food can foul the water quickly. So having parent in with them will ensure all uneaten food are cleaned up by the parents.

Normally if the tank is big enough and there are places for him to retreat, leaving the father in there is fine.

Thomas.

[Robdog]

Back to TW's original question, personally I'd pull the fry out and give them to Thomas!

[TW]

thanks all

I have negotiated a deal with hubby to set up a small 6 litre tank for a short period of time. I'll try to stretch that for as long as I can. I tried to catch all the fry last night & managed about 15 out of 22. Plan was to move both mum & fry into the holding tank - so she could continue to care for them (teaching them how to eat & what not). I got scared though, as when I caught her & put her with the babies, her guarding dress was gone & she seemed stress. I've read that a stressed mum can get confused & eat the fry & thought she might do that, particularly as she had put her party clothes away & was wearing her drab every day dress. So, I put her back in the tank.

Low & behold, tonight her party dress is back on & she has herded her remaining 7 fry together & is guarding them. So, I have 2 chances now - the holding tank & the main tank.

Unfortunately, I find the fry harder to find in the holding tank than I did in the main tank (they have spread out, instead of together in a bunch & they blend in with the gravel). I have only really spotted 3 or 4 tonight.

Thanks for the feeding suggestions wickedglass. I use a syringe. I don't really need the air tube, as I can reach them with the syringe - but in the holding tank I can't tell where they are to aim.

Auburn have been out of live BBS for the last 2 days & they promised me tomorrow. In the meantime, I'm giving them frozen BBS, but not sure they are eating it. I also have some liquid fry food that I had for my baby platys. Can I use that?

My hubby has his own tank (a marine setup in June 06), but it is the accountant in him that already objects to my 3 tanks (plus the fry holding tank) but for the time being, I have the fry holding tank.

I'm curious though, how long is it before apistos can take crushed flake or brine shrimp?

Back to TW's original question, personally I'd pull the fry out and give them to Thomas!

That sounds like a good idea to me, trouble is, I'd want at least a couple of them back, as I need a new mate for my widowed bita.



Thanks for all the replies.

[Th0mas]

A few suggestions/questions:

Is there any filtration in the holding tank? If not, stick in a sponge filter quickly.

There shouldn't be gravel in the holding tank, leaving it bare makes it much easier to maintain.

Do not use liquid fry food - it's more trouble than it's worth as 6 litre of water can go off very quickly.

Feeding dry food can be difficult to control, it will take at least 2 months or more before the fry is big enough to have interest in normal dry food. Never stick with one single type of dry food as it does not provide a good balance in their diet so it's always best to supplement with BBS and other type of live/frozen food. It'll be at least 4 months before they're large enough to have a go at full size BS, but BS isn't as nutritional as BBS.

Breeding the sibbling with mum isn't such great idea as this lead to in-breeding. Definitely something that most don't encourage.

BBS hatchery isn't so difficult - and your can even feed then to marine (get your husband to set it up and you just pinch some for the fry, 20 fry don't eat too much BBS at this stage).

Have thought of offering to care for some/all of them but I don't have 100% success rate and sometime a bad run (overlook in checking water parameters, etc) can lead to 100% mortality (as it has just happened to my macmasteri batch two days ago). Am more than happy to return 50% of whatever grew up - but there's no guarantee how many will make it through.

Keep us update with the progress.

Thomas.