Under Gravel Filter...

[tailz]

I’m considering building a new 2ft cube tank into a breeding tank. It will be a planted tank with wood, not a bear glass tank – as I find a planted tank with a stable biological system is far easier to take care of (especially considering I often fly interstate).

In the past with my last breeding tank, I found that a sponge filter in the tank just didn’t have the guts to do the job, and that all manor of inlet pipe attachments (to prevent fry from being vacuumed into the canister filter) just caused problems that resulted in lots more stuffing around. So last time, I used an under gravel filter with my canister filter intake pipes sucking water from under the baseplate (and it worked perfectly fine until my flat mate turned off the system when I had to fly interstate).

Now I know a lot of folks frown upon under gravel filters, and I agree with most of their reasons. But I found this to be the best solution for my setup last time. So I thought I might bounce some of my ideas off you folks and see what constructive criticism I get.

The problems I found last time were:
Gravel Particle Size – If the gravel is too fine, the larger particles of food will get stuck on or in the gravel. Gravel with a pebble size of no smaller than 5-10mm would be best.
Void Space – The void between the floor of the tank and the base plate of the under gravel filter should be 2cm to 1 inch – anything smaller does not give an adequate flow for the power and can, block up with matter and create flow voids of stagnate water.
Flow Rate – I found that the rate of water flow through my old canister filter just didn’t have the guts to handle the setup to keep the flow of water in the under gravel area at a good level, resulting in low pressure zones. Also pipe diameter restricted maximum flor rate.

What I am considering doing is to make an under gravel filter from scratch. I’m looking at a specially cut plate made from Perspex to form the main base plate, with stand off feet to give a void space of 1 inch. The canister filter should be of a larger variety than I have used in the past (I have taken on an overkill attitude towards canister filters because I am not as fanatical towards water changes as most – and because I aim for a biological process more than just lots of water changes). With larger gauge tubing that I plan to attach directly into the filter base plate – although I am still considering how best to make the fitting to get best flow rate...

But I am in no hurry, I’m still growing out the pair I suspect I have in another tank.

[ILLUSN]

you will have problems breeding in a planted tank, too many shadows too may dark objets to distract the fry, if you were to try it stick with turks or browns you've got more chance of sucess.

[Hollowman]

I am with ILLUSN, you cannot breed in a planted tank. Under gravel filters are a thing of the past. There is nothing simpler than an air driven sponger filter, and they can handle huge volumes of water. I would think that you didn't have the sponge cycled.

Also, if you are not a fan of water changes, do not even try to breed discus, you will fail, or end up with a whole bunch of stunted fish and culls. Therefore, I see no point in doing it.
You cannot, even with a 'planted tank' filter out DOC's, these compounds are the ones that will stunt fish in a heartbeat, there is NO substitute for changing water, and when raising discus, you need lots of it, period.

[tailz]

you will have problems breeding in a planted tank, too many shadows too may dark objets to distract the fry, if you were to try it stick with turks or browns you've got more chance of sucess.

Hum… The last time I dabbled with breeding Discus I had a planted tank and didn’t seem to have too much of a problem with shadows. Although I did have a dim light setup for the tank as a book I read at the time recommended dim lighting for the tank at all times so the fry could find the parents and vica verca.

The two Discus who might be a pair are blue turquoise, but a bit on the small side for the moment – so I am in no rush. Just thinking long term.

I am with ILLUSN, you cannot breed in a planted tank. Under gravel filters are a thing of the past. There is nothing simpler than an air driven sponger filter, and they can handle huge volumes of water. I would think that you didn't have the sponge cycled.

I agree that a sponge filter is the best solution – otherwise why else would everyone go for it. But I have never felt that a sponge driven by air bubbles has the guts to process enough water through it like a powered canister filter, plus the mechanical and biological processes that go on inside the canister filter.

I’ve tried sponge filters, but I decided it was just not the best solution for me (Plus a sponge filter is a rather ugly feature in a tank) since I still insist of having a canister filter regardless – my problem is I don’t want to vacuum up young fry with the intake pipe of the canister filter, thus why I look at an under gravel filter.

Also, if you are not a fan of water changes, do not even try to breed discus, you will fail, or end up with a whole bunch of stunted fish and culls. Therefore, I see no point in doing it.

I’ll admit I’m not fanatical about water changes, but my problem is more a lack of spare time and the fact that often the tank has to take care of itself when I am interstate.

My intention is not to breed Discus for the pure goal of breeding Discus – if that was the case, then sure; Glass bottom tank, weekly water changes, sponge filter. The Discus breeding is really a nice side bonus to having a second nice looking tank in my studio with Discus displayed in a semi-natural looking environment.

You cannot, even with a 'planted tank' filter out DOC's, these compounds are the ones that will stunt fish in a heartbeat, there is NO substitute for changing water, and when raising discus, you need lots of it, period.

I’ll never escape the need of water changes; I have no problem with that. I’ve even setup a water drum to act as an ageing container that I drain into the tank after I vacuum the tank as part of my water changing practice. Something I am trying to get into the habit of doing weekly, if not fortnightly - but this relies on me being at home to do these things. I can’t do it if I am 100km away! So I want the tank to be able to take care of itself for any prolonged period of time without having to employ someone to just change water!

If you have read the intro I posted in the Introductions section of this forum, you would see this is not my first time trying to do this. My last attempt was with a planted aquarium, it did have a canister filter that drew tank water from an under gravel filter, and was going quite well while I could take care of it. The whole affair only ended in disaster when I flew interstate and put my trust in someone who switched the whole thing off!

So I know it can be done.

I just wish to find a way of running a canister filter without sucking up free swimming fry.

You cannot, even with a 'planted tank' filter out DOC's, these compounds are the ones that will stunt fish in a heartbeat, there is NO substitute for changing water, and when raising discus, you need lots of it, period.

DOC - Please excuse my ignorance, but I’m not too savvy with all the acronyms. I assume your referring to the materials that result from the breakdown of biological waist.

[TW]

I just wish to find a way of running a canister filter without sucking up free swimming fry.

I have successfuly raised krib fry in a planted tank, but not discus. I put a stocking over my cannister filter intake. A sponge would do just as well.

In a planted tank, the fry will probably get separated too easily from the parents & so likely starve, regardless of the filter intake issue. But if I read you right, I don't think it's your goal to raise the fry anyway, just watch the breeding pairs intereaction with any eggs & any fry.

In my planted tank, I have seen discus eggs & the parents guarding the eggs. But never once have I seen free swimmers.

[tailz]

I have successfuly raised krib fry in a planted tank, but not discus. I put a stocking over my cannister filter intake. A sponge would do just as well.

I tried the stocking over the filter intake during my first go at breeding discus and I found that the material decays rather rapidly. Plus I found that the fabric strangles the flow of water into the intake pipe far too much. I did pick up an attachment that fits onto the end of the intake pipe and includes a plastic mesh sponge as a sort of “pre-filter” before water enters the pipe. But the small size of fry slip through the mesh sponge (to my horror at that time).

I have thought of jerry rigging a sponge onto the end of the intake pipe. I was thinking that if I make a length of pipe with holes in it – say abut 15cm long – the holes would provide enough water volume entering the pipe to give a good enough flow of water into the canister filter. The 15cm of pipe would then fit into a “sheath” of sponge that would sit in the tank.

In a planted tank, the fry will probably get separated too easily from the parents & so likely starve, regardless of the filter intake issue. But if I read you right, I don't think it's your goal to raise the fry anyway, just watch the breeding pairs intereaction with any eggs & any fry.

I’m not too worried about losing fry – think of it in the terms of natural selection at work. I am interested about the fry surviving, don’t misunderstand that - but I’m not doing this just to raise fry.

To be honest I am not that worried about the parents losing a few fry in the plants, the last time I tried this the parents always seemed to ferret them out of wherever they went and herd them around. Maybe I just was lucky and had good parents. But if the vegetation is too thick, it will create areas the parents can’t get too but where fry can.

I generally these days keep plants on lumps of wood for ease of gravel vacuuming, and they are mostly Amazon Swords.

In my planted tank, I have seen discus eggs & the parents guarding the eggs. But never once have I seen free swimmers.

The eggs don’t develop or do they get, cleaned up by something?

[TW]

They weren't alone, but in a community tank. I assume they were quickly munched on, if ever they became free swimming. All I know is, one day the parents were guarding, the next all gone. Also, they picked a bad spot to lay - right on the filter uptake. As I had no intention of breeding, I didn't do anything to protect the fry from being sucked up, so that is a possibility too.

There are lots of fish filter sponges that are just the right size to slip over the filter intake. Some already have a hole in the middle, some you may have to cut. My cannisters are all oversized for the tank. Flow was never an issue for me. If you have to cut them, wet them slightly & put them in the freezer. They will be easier to cut. If you just cut a vertical cross right down the middle, that should work.

[Hollowman]

I am sorry Tailz, but I cannot agree with almost anything you have said. I do not profess to be an expert, but I have been around a while and have read and listened to those who I rely on when I get in trouble, these people include masters like Andrew Soh and the top people in the Uk and US, as well as the many great people here.
I think that you are taking a head in the sand stance, and not wanting to admit that there are time served ways of doing things. The advice I gave was taken from experience. Sponge filters are, for 99% the only way to set up a breeding cube, you are quite wrong when you say that they do not process big volumes of water....they do, fact. They will not suck in fry, so that is the first problem solved, period.
You have accepted that you have to do water changes, great. But not only have you started with the wrong ethic, but you want to try to breed, and think that this will be fine, it quite simply wont. By not water changing, you will be making your fish suffer in their own waste. Think of it this way, you are living in a room, with no door to open, no windows to open, and there is no toilet, just the floor, add to this the fact that the other people in that room all smoke. The only time that you get fresh air is when the door is opened for half an hour a week. Not a nice thought is it. You have said Something I am trying to get into the habit of doing weekly, if not fortnightly - but this relies on me being at home I cannot help but think that that keeping fish, or specially discus are not right for you.

You will do what you will, I can't stop you doing that, but please take the advice in the vein in which it is given. We are passionate fish keepers here and knowing that you will be keeping them in an environment that will make the fish sick, and then try to breed, is just not ethically right.
I am not ranting at you, please don't think that, but trying to get my point over, that you need to re-assess your situation, and being away from home, keeping pets does not work.

H

[tailz]

They weren't alone, but in a community tank. I assume they were quickly munched on, if ever they became free swimming. All I know is, one day the parents were guarding, the next all gone. Also, they picked a bad spot to lay - right on the filter uptake. As I had no intention of breeding, I didn't do anything to protect the fry from being sucked up, so that is a possibility too.

Yup, laying eggs right on the intake pipe is asking for trouble.

There are lots of fish filter sponges that are just the right size to slip over the filter intake. Some already have a hole in the middle, some you may have to cut. My cannisters are all oversized for the tank. Flow was never an issue for me. If you have to cut them, wet them slightly & put them in the freezer. They will be easier to cut. If you just cut a vertical cross right down the middle, that should work.

I aim for excessive canister filtering too.

That idea about wetting and then freezing the sponge is a great idea! I wish I had thought of that!

So I have changed my plan a bit. Out goes the under gravel plate, in comes a pipe cut to slide into a sponge. I have an old power head filter which had a sponge housed in a plastic frame, I was considering using the plastic frame as a way of keeping the sponge fixed onto the pipe just in case it slides off – but I suspect this frame would create a barrier that fry could get wedged in between the frame and the sponge in such a way that the parents could not ferret the fry out from.

I am sorry Tailz, but I cannot agree with almost anything you have said. I do not profess to be an expert, but I have been around a while and have read and listened to those who I rely on when I get in trouble, these people include masters like Andrew Soh and the top people in the Uk and US, as well as the many great people here.
I think that you are taking a head in the sand stance, and not wanting to admit that there are time served ways of doing things. The advice I gave was taken from experience.

Head in the sand stance, Oh-ky...

Sponge filters are, for 99% the only way to set up a breeding cube, you are quite wrong when you say that they do not process big volumes of water....they do, fact. They will not suck in fry, so that is the first problem solved, period.

And had you been reading, you would have seen that the “constructive criticism” provided by TW has resulted in my agreement with TW as to a way I can both keep my canister filter and employ a sponge to prevent fry from getting vacuumed up – a compromise towards both ends would you not agree?

You have accepted that you have to do water changes, great. But not only have you started with the wrong ethic, but you want to try to breed, and think that this will be fine, it quite simply wont. By not water changing, you will be making your fish suffer in their own waste. Think of it this way, you are living in a room, with no door to open, no windows to open, and there is no toilet, just the floor, add to this the fact that the other people in that room all smoke. The only time that you get fresh air is when the door is opened for half an hour a week. Not a nice thought is it. You have said Something I am trying to get into the habit of doing weekly, if not fortnightly - but this relies on me being at home I cannot help but think that that keeping fish, or specially discus are not right for you.

Maybe I am using the wrong words, or I am just not articulating myself well enough and thus the wrong image has been portrayed. I know and understand everything you have told me, and I completely and totally agree. I know water changes are important, I know the deadly nature of the build-up of biological waste materials.

I was interested about having a discussion about setting up this tank, now I’m stuck here defending myself from a barrage of comments about my head being stuck in sand! If my head was stuck in the proverbial sand, why did I start up a discussion thread to discuss this plan if I was not seeking advice? My goodness, constructive criticism seems to be a lost art these days.

I am not ranting at you

Could have fooled me.

[TW]

Hi tailz

Hollowman is far more experienced discus keeper than me. I'd take his advice over mine any day. When it comes to breeding, BB really is best with only a sponge filter. The planted tank /cannister with filter intake protected with sponge, means you might see them breed, but it's unlikely you'll end up growing out any fry. But have fun whichever way you go.