Under Gravel Filter...

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Tue Mar 03, 2009, 06:15 PM
Hollowman

Tailz, Really, I am not ranting, but I am passionate. I see what you are going to do and am trying to convince you otherwise. Re: the sponge filter thing, ok, a cannister is your preferred method of filtration. In a bigger tank or planted, fine, you have my vote. But breeding, it is just asking for trouble. Even with the best intensions, the draw of water into the intake of a cannister will be too much, and any new free swimming fry that get close will be sucked onto it. I run sponges on my cannister intakes, and have had neons and cardinals stick to them overnight and die. Fry won't stand a chance, please see that.
You seem to be making hard work and finding problems that a simple air driven sponge filter will overcome.
A breeding cube consists of a bare bottom tank, a heater and an air driven sponge filter. I think everyone will agree. That's it .

Maybe my passion has made you think I am being a bit hard on you, but I am not, really. When I read of some of ways people do things or want to do things, I will try to persuade them that there are other ways to do it that are the best ways. We all learn through experience, and why not learn from those who have made the mistakes already, I do, and have made some of the mistake as well.
I wish you luck in whatever you direction you take, or whoever's advice you follow :)

H :)
Tue Mar 03, 2009, 10:41 PM
tailz

Quote:

Originally Posted by TW

Hollowman is far more experienced discus keeper than me. I'd take his advice over mine any day. When it comes to breeding, BB really is best with only a sponge filter. The planted tank /cannister with filter intake protected with sponge, means you might see them breed, but it's unlikely you'll end up growing out any fry. But have fun whichever way you go.

I agree Hollowman is far more experienced with Discus than I, but he seems to have completely missed what I am trying to do and seems to be blind to all else apart from a bear bottom tank with a sponge!

I desire his advice, seriously, I do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollowman

Tailz, Really, I am not ranting, but I am passionate. I see what you are going to do and am trying to convince you otherwise.

I completely agree with you in regard to a bear bottom tank and sponge as the best solution - if all I am concerned about is breeding Discus – in that respect, you’re preaching to the choir.

I am thinking about setting up a second tank for a pair of Discus I have that “might” be a pair and that “might” decide to breed. This second tank will be a display tank (because visitors will be able to view it), and I would like to show the Discus in a semi-natural looking environment. If they breed, I want the tank, even though it is planted, even though it is not a dedicated breeding tank, to be setup to facilitate this breeding just in case it happens.

If I was setting up this tank for the one and only purpose of breeding Discus, it would be a bear bottom tank with a sponge filter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollowman

Re: the sponge filter thing, ok, a cannister is your preferred method of filtration. In a bigger tank or planted, fine, you have my vote. But breeding, it is just asking for trouble. Even with the best intensions, the draw of water into the intake of a cannister will be too much, and any new free swimming fry that get close will be sucked onto it. I run sponges on my cannister intakes, and have had neons and cardinals stick to them overnight and die. Fry won't stand a chance, please see that.

How have you attached the sponge to the intake pipe? I’m concerned about the force of water sucking things in at too powerful a level, but am wondering if I can – in essence – spread the load over a larger surface area as a method of lowering the pull of water to the sponge. As I suspect that simply shoving the intake pipe into a sponge will create a high pressure zone around the sponge at the mouth of the pipe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollowman

A breeding cube consists of a bare bottom tank, a heater and an air driven sponge filter. I think everyone will agree. That's it.

You’re preaching to the choir again…

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollowman

Maybe my passion has made you think I am being a bit hard on you, but I am not, really.

No I don’t think your being hard on me – I just think you’re stuck in your single minded perspective.
Tue Mar 03, 2009, 10:59 PM
Hollowman

Ha ha, ok then, :D I'm not stuck in a groove :wink:

I think if you were tto try to spead the load to reduce flow down to what could be safe, I still think you are looking at a sponge of the size of about 6" diameter x 4" long, and a reasonably fine sponge too. This might cause the flow rate to slow down into the cannister though.
If you want a natural but realistic biotope for the fish, then a plain sandy bottom with a nice lot of bogwood roots will look good. In the wild, there are near to no plants, so this would also help in keeping a cleaner environment for the fish. Are you planning on keeping wild or domestic fish ?

H (no rant that time :wink: )
Tue Mar 03, 2009, 11:00 PM
TW

I guess each filter set-up is different, but I was lucky enough that my krib fry was not sucked up to the filter tube. I had the filter intake up fairly high & krib & apistos are bottom/mid level fish, so I think that helped. Perhaps some were sucked up and I didn't even notice it, but none were attached to the sponge & the sponge was fairly fine, so I don't think they would have been sucked through the sponge & into the filter. Maybe mum & dad were too good at keeping their brood together, as kribs aggressively guard for around 3 weeks. The main purpose of the krib tank was a planted tank, but the pair were on their own & I was lucky enough to have a successful breeding experience.

I really don't think it would work with discus though.

As long as your main purpose is a planted display tank, then I can see where you're coming from. I just think you may be being overly optomistic about your chances of getting much past the egg or wiggler stage - but maybe you'll have luck.

Have fun.
Wed Mar 04, 2009, 03:40 AM
tailz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollowman

I think if you were tto try to spead the load to reduce flow down to what could be safe, I still think you are looking at a sponge of the size of about 6" diameter x 4" long, and a reasonably fine sponge too. This might cause the flow rate to slow down into the cannister though.

A 6 inch diameter sponge, but only 4 inches in depth? Would that not be a little short? I was thinking somewhere along the lines of a slightly longer sponge with the pipe inserted most of the way through the sponge, but with holes along the sides of the pipe so that the water is being sucked in via the sides of the pipe (and thus most of the surface area of the sponge) rather than just the open end of the pipe.

http://www.wyldfurr.com/pipe.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollowman

If you want a natural but realistic biotope for the fish, then a plain sandy bottom with a nice lot of bogwood roots will look good. In the wild, there are near to no plants, so this would also help in keeping a cleaner environment for the fish.

Now you’re talking my language. Something like, a flooded Amazon forest sort of look.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollowman

Are you planning on keeping wild or domestic fish ?

Well, that is dependant upon my local store. But I really already have what will go into the tank. The two I have my eye on in my current tank, seem to have paired up quite well, but are still young, so I have time to kick back and relax. But who knows, they might both end up being duds as far as parents go?

I would not say no to a wild green if it wandered my way tho.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TW

As long as your main purpose is a planted display tank, then I can see where you're coming from. I just think you may be being overly optomistic about your chances of getting much past the egg or wiggler stage - but maybe you'll have luck.

The last time I ended up with a breeding pair, in a planted tank, I got them up to about just under the size of a 5 cent coin, before my flatmate destroyed everything! :(
Thu Mar 05, 2009, 12:01 AM
ILLUSN

How many did you get? IMO anything less than 20 isn't worth the effort, but each to their own.

if you get onto ebay for $1Us you can buy a pair of sponge guards that just slip over the intake of a 2213 or 2217 or fluval 4 series canister, saves you a lot of hassel in fabricating a new intake.

what ever you decide to do please post up pics so we can all have a look
Thu Mar 05, 2009, 02:40 AM
BigDaddyAdo

Not meaning to get this thread off track again but you dont appear to do change enough water for pretty much any fish let alone discus... Correct me if im wrong but you appear to want to find a way around regular tank maintenance?
Thu Mar 05, 2009, 05:07 AM
tailz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusn

How many did you get? IMO anything less than 20 isn't worth the effort, but each to their own.

How many young Discus did I get? Enough that it gave me a hard time counting them all – easily over 20.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusn

if you get onto ebay for $1Us you can buy a pair of sponge guards that just slip over the intake of a 2213 or 2217 or fluval 4 series canister, saves you a lot of hassel in fabricating a new intake.

Oh?

**starts to google search that topic**

Is this what you were talking about?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusn

what ever you decide to do please post up pics so we can all have a look

Sure, although with the angst I seem to have acuminated I don’t know if I will hang about much longer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDaddyAdo

Not meaning to get this thread off track again but you dont appear to do change enough water for pretty much any fish let alone discus... Correct me if im wrong but you appear to want to find a way around regular tank maintenance?

Oy vay!

In those instances when I fly interstate, yes.
Thu Mar 05, 2009, 06:20 AM
ILLUSN

No mate they are a blue or yellow sponge bout 2.5 inches across and 6 inches long (i cut mine in half) they have a hole in the center running the length of the sponge bout 22mm wide, they fit nice and snug over the intakes i use them on my peppermint and orange spot tanks.

dont take anyones comments too personally, they;re all jyust pasionate about their fish, i really cant talk my last 2 holiday i sceduled return trips to syd every 72hrs to do water changes.

I always dreamed of a nice little 2.5 foot cube with a nice pair of blue faced heckels in a sunken forest so i understand where your comming from every time i tried to keep a pair in such a tank I was always disapointed with the result (fish looked too thin or stunted never laid enough eggs, never fertilized enough eggs, nitrates got too high, fish got hex +flukes +worms + other paracites) but people overseas do it some one here should be able to do it too.
Thu Mar 05, 2009, 11:02 PM
tailz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusn

No mate they are a blue or yellow sponge bout 2.5 inches across and 6 inches long (i cut mine in half) they have a hole in the center running the length of the sponge bout 22mm wide, they fit nice and snug over the intakes i use them on my peppermint and orange spot tanks.

I think I know the ones you’re talking about, but the ones I am thinking off have quite a large diameter hole down the centre – and the hole goes right the way through, where I think the bottom should be enclosed with sponge. I’ll have a bit more of a hunt around, might visit my local store and see what they have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusn

dont take anyones comments too personally, they;re all jyust pasionate about their fish, i really cant talk my last 2 holiday i sceduled return trips to syd every 72hrs to do water changes.

I’m not going to bother sticking around if I’m just going to be constantly defending myself. Bugger that for a joke. I’d like to stay and learn a bit more, but who would want to when the reception is so hostile?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illusn

I always dreamed of a nice little 2.5 foot cube with a nice pair of blue faced heckels in a sunken forest so i understand where your comming from every time i tried to keep a pair in such a tank I was always disapointed with the result (fish looked too thin or stunted never laid enough eggs, never fertilized enough eggs, nitrates got too high, fish got hex +flukes +worms + other paracites) but people overseas do it some one here should be able to do it too.

But was your only objective to raise the young? The thing that gets me, is that as much as everyone is giving me the doom and gloom treatment…

“A planted tank with a breeding pair in it, will never work!”

I have done it. The last time it seemed to work well for me once I sorted out the filter vacuuming up the fry. It only ended in disaster when I had to fly interstate and my flatmate nuked the tank. So obviously in my mind, it can work as it did in the past (as long as I don’t leave the tank in the hands of a moron).

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