What causes peppering?

[Blybo]

Hi Guy's,
Nearly 2 weeks ago I bought a beautiful 'White Ghost' (?) and a super red. The white ghost has developed peppering as soon as it was added to my planted tank. The water is fine ph 6.8-7.0, low gh and kh, 0 ammo but a little cooler than most at 27' C as I keep them with rainbows.

Is there anything you can do to reduce peppering once it is there? I also thought that peppering was more likely on red varieties.

[sammigold]

I have read many different peoples opinions on this and some people have said that their fish peppered up more in planted tanks than bb tanks....

I dont know but I have a pigeon blood that is white with orange striations and he has a small amount of peppering....

I personally think it would have to be a genetic thing... but maybe they have the ability to "pepper" up more in order to camoflage?? Just an idea...

[Joe]

I think peppering is in fact genetic to some strains (that's where you get the distinction of "clean" or "peppered"). Just like bars and colors appear differently in various conditions, the peppering could just become darker when the fish are stressed or introduced into a new environment.

[samir]

you could increase the light(brighter and longer periods) and get a light coloured substrate.i'll elaborate later when i have more time.

[samir]

okay here we go....
pigeon blood apparently originated from one single fish in Malaysia(not sure) in the 80's. pigeons have a gene that affects the distribution of black pigment in discus. this gene is dominant and a pure pigeon when mated with a different type will produce 100% pigeon fry. Pigeons do not have the black vertical bars and cannot darken at will. a lot of the colourful fish you see today are pigeon blood with fancy names. when the first pigeons were bred they had tons of peppering, but later with selective breeding and exposing them to bright light 24/7 for the first 90 days after birth, peppering was reduced. So peppering to a pigeon is what vertical bars would be to a turqouise (except Rytis's white turk :lol: lol rytis just kidding.) So the same way a turk shows its bars a pigeon shows its peppering. on some light coloured pigeons you can see the peppering right where the vertical bars would be. The good quality pigeons have no peppering. I hope I cleared things up without confusing the issue further.

[mcloughlin2]

Samir i dont not believe exposing the pigeons to bright light reduces peppering, well i dont think its a proven theory. :?

Blybo, the darker the tank is the more peppering the discus will have..so having a white gravel or light brown/tan coloured gravel will help reduce peppering...

Also having say a light blue/green background will help reduce it as the peppering is a form of camouflage.... :D

HTH

[samir]

you'ld be surprised :) LOL. here's an interesting article.
http://www.chanmingdiscus.com/asian_discus02_content.html

[rytis]

i don't get you people. now you're worried about peppering? those little dots that give fish the character? i have one like that, it's what makes fish BEAUTIFUL! to me anyway...

sorry to butt in, it's just my opinion...

[samir]

LOL Rytis, a lot of people like peppering to begin with, i'm sure that with time you will like it less and less.

[RichVic]

Hi, Just want to add a bit from my (limited) experience -
Everytime I have moved fish they have adjusted their colour to suit their environment in the bb quarantyine tank they all lightened up a lot and when moved to the biotope tank, they've all taken on a bit of the driftwood colour etc. I agree they seem to pepper-up when stressed eg bullied or in new environment etc.
But recently while reading through the Breeding topics, I found two instances of people saying when they moved fish from display tank to bare-bottom for breeding purposes, the peppering lessened or disappeared. ? I think it was posts by kswong and ladyred?? the first has before/after pictures of the fish on his posting?? I also want to mention that I purchased a pair of ocean greens -& one fish got almost 80% peppering in the first week at my home while the other has stayed "clean." So genetics must also play some part, (Greens were 3mths old)

P.S I dont like it at all on my ocean green - who originally had a magic sheen over his body and now its hidden behind the dots!

[samir]

i have a pigeon thats orange and clean during the day, but after the sun's down turns red and heavily peppered. put him anywhere there's direct or indirect sunlight and bang turns orange and no peppering. figure that one out :D

[goldenpigeon]

i have some pigeons that you wouldnt think are pigeons. not a spot on them ever!!! they are in with around 10 other discus but i know they do have peppering! even at night it doesnt show!

[samir]

that means your pigeons are better than my pigeons . :)

[nicholas76]

Peppering from what I have learnt over the years was a main characteristic of the PIGEON strain when it was first developd by professional breeders.

It's a black colouring that usually looks like " sprinkles" located around the head / nose / gill area of the fish. You do get fish however that do have it scattered all over though.

I have found that the black pigment does intensify when lighting or water parameters are not right.

IMO peppering never really goes away, however if the fish is happy and you have it an environment that best suites the fish e.g good lighting, appropriate back drop colour its harder too see.

I have had breeder pigeon strains that will pepper up when in spawn mode however the peppering virtually disappears when they are not.

Commercial breeders generally strive for little or no peppering in there fish and this is achieved through selective breeding these days which is what most people want,,,,, and that is "clean looking fish". Most small time discus keepers like us generally breed peppered pigeons lol

RichVic - a little puzzled mate ocean greens dont have peppering they get stress bars. Can you post a picture please it would be interesting to see.

Rytis - Im glad you enjoy your fish for what they are bud. I do think your taste will change over time as you become more selective in grooming your own personal "grand champion discus"

[nicholas76]

Old pictures of mine.

Before and after having fry . ( peppering diffrence )

[nicholas76]

during fry raising. Stress levels are up and it shows!

A white fish develops black dirty peppering and even dominant stress bar lines.

[nicholas76]

zero peppering on this champ!

[Blybo]

i don't get you people. now you're worried about peppering? those little dots that give fish the character? i have one like that, it's what makes fish BEAUTIFUL! to me anyway...

sorry to butt in, it's just my opinion...

That's right! Its your opinion :x ... yet at the same time you are having a go at us for our opinion of not liking it :roll: . If I liked peppering on Discus I could save a small fortune by buying them that way. I think I have a right to be disappointed that the fish I spent a decent amount of money on has developed traits that I find lessens its value.

Thank you to the others who have contributed valuable feedback. After another water change on the weekend the peppering has gone down a little bit and I will reverse my back ground to blue tonight and see what difference that makes...

[nicholas76]

Blybo,


would love to see a picture of your fish.


what I do is ask the LFS or supplier what ph s/he had the fish in . I then try and mimic that at home. This could also help you in pepper reduction.

cheers

[Merrilyn]

This is such an interesting subject. As you know, I bred a lot of red fish, and peppering is something I come across all the time.

As an interesting side note, Crocky has been breeding some red fish of mine for me. He sent some of the fry down to me, and I put them into a planted tank with fry of the same age. Crocky kept some of the siblings, and raised them in a bare tank. No substrate, and no plants.

My fish are showing some peppering, and his are not. I removed the plants and changed the background from black to a lighter blue, and the peppering has gone :shock:

Not sure just what that proves, but these fish are siblings, raised in two different tanks. One group showed peppering, and the other group did not.

I leave you to draw your own conclusions :wink:

[jim from sydney]

Merrilyn

interesting isn't it.....??????......

[nicholas76]

sure is interesting red!

there was this published study on the net some years ago which ran a test on a bunch of blue dimaond fry and normal pigeon fry.

the test sample - one batch of blue diamonds and pigeons had strong intense lighting from a young age. The blue dimaonds were light blue whilst the pigeons had no peppering after several months. The other non test discus siblings had peppering whilst the blue diamonds were darker!

[rytis]

I removed the plants and changed the background from black to a lighter blue, and the peppering has gone :shock:

Not sure just what that proves, but these fish are siblings, raised in two different tanks. One group showed peppering, and the other group did not.

I leave you to draw your own conclusions :wink:

it proves, (as im sure you know) that peppering is a sort of camouflage fish use to blend in. a natural thing.

[samir]

it proves, (as im sure you know) that peppering is a sort of camouflage fish use to blend in. a natural thing.
rytis we know that. its a defective gene that creates the peppering. its the same as a normal fish going darker and showing bars.. the point of using intense light is so that the fish do not get the oppurtunity to use it,and the same way as heckel fry born in captivity do not need that thick bar in the middle, a pigeon blood subject to intense lighting and light surfaces will lose peppering over a few generations because it does not need it. on the other hand if you grow them up in heavily planted tanks with dim light the pepper will increase.