Pricing - Split from Eheim thread

[taksan]

Get yours before prices increase!!!

They are increasing the price? My god ...when will they learn :?:

[Daetarek]

I think the RRP for just the filter is around $700 .... cheap at twice the price :lol:

a bit extreme for my liking, i think two 2217's will do around the same and still cost less, pump output would be 2000, power consumption is slightly more at 40W, the media volume is only 12L not 13L. oh and when you want to clean your filters you can keep one running whilst cleaning the other :) all for only around $540 !!!

I think Eheim may have lost the plot here a little, i know the 2217 is nothing on the Pro series, with self priming, dual inputs, a flow meter (which no one will see whilst its tucked under the tank) etc ... but seriously most people cannot justify that much money on a filter .... i think even two 2224 pros are gonna be cheaper .... maybe around $580, and you can buy it in stages so its not such a big up front investment

anyways thats just my take on it all, the equipment is getting more expensive for less !!!

[taksan]

I think Eheim may have lost the plot here a little,
anyways thats just my take on it all, the equipment is getting more expensive for less !!!

Thats right and do you notice that their competition is offering more for less cost ? I love Eheims (got like 20 of them including 6 Pro 3's) but its getting difficult to justify the prices. That said APW's price for the Pro3 is excellent !
But it worries me when they mention price rises as its already far more then most people are prepared to pay. I was talking to a major retailer the other day and he told me that Ehiem sales have dropped back to a fraction of their previous levels over the past few years. It seems the fish keeping public are voting with their feet.

[Daetarek]

I have no doubt its a good price, and if i was earning a lot more and had the spare to throw around i may even consider one, but as you say they are loosing their technological and innovative edge, to other companies and are strugling to keep the sales up ... if they bought their prices down about 20% to be closer to their competition i am sure people could justify a cost difference of maybe around $50 to $75 depending on filter size etc..., but a difference of almost $200 is pushing it a bit especially when you can get two smaller filters that will do as much for around $100 less, and thats their own brand which is more expensive, i bet you could easily find a few 1500lph cannisters around $120 no worries, thats a fifth of the price you could buy three ... two for the tank and one for spare and have enough to go out and buy a few discus

although that said this may be more aimed at breeders and shops etc... rather than enthusiastes

or the other possibility is that the import tax and shipping costs to aus on these is ridiculous !!! (i have a friend who can get them in germany for around 230EURO with Media, thats around $380AUS)

[Proteus]

I think the RRP for just the filter is around $700

Actually, the RRP is over $1,000, and if you look around, even online you will find many do have there prices set at that level or above, and/or they don't have stock.

[Phenomena]

Yes, that's only mean one thing when you compare prices with overseas. Too much mark up by the importer, wholesaler, and retailer here.

[Proteus]

Bear in mind retailers, whether stores or online need to make an adequate margin. Basing my principle on consistency (as in they would usually have the same margin on all suppliers, brands, etc) it isnt hard to work out who makes the serious dollars.

Bear in mind with new electrical import laws coming into effect from next month, the days of easily importing a product like the Pro III from another country will be very hard and/or expensive due to the permits and Australian compliance numbers that will be required (I guess the suppliers have already covered this issue)

[Daetarek]

I would say based on the usual mark ups for most retailers ... say between 10% to 20% that they would be making maybe $40 to $80 on the item .... remember there is also GST in there to :?

Thanks to import tax, and duties, then a GST on top of that, plus any special certifications finally then their own costs .... the item by this stage has increased by around 30% to 40% in price just there :(

Although why an item made in Germany where they have even more stringent electrical laws needs to be re tested here is beyond me !!!

btw a friend working for samsung said that the certification test costs big dollars and that they would have to pass the cost on to consumers, my fear with this is that we will take longer to get new products due to manufacturers waiting to see if they are popular enough o/s to warrant an Aussie release :(

[Proteus]

I would say based on the usual mark ups for most retailers ... say between 10% to 20%

Sorry to burst your bubble on this, but no business, especially in this industry could survive with mark-ups of that level.

When you factor in freight costs, GST, insurance, overheads, wages, superanuation, plus leaving a reasonable amount for profit and growth even 20-30% is not a sustainable level.

Having direct experience not just in the aquarium industry, but other areas of retail, sadly I can confirm that 10-20% is just not do-able.

[Proteus]

btw a friend working for samsung said that the certification test costs big dollars and that they would have to pass the cost on to consumers, my fear with this is that we will take longer to get new products due to manufacturers waiting to see if they are popular enough o/s to warrant an Aussie release

Sadly this is a reality in many areas of consumer products.

Example, I always buy my digital cameras, camcorders etc in the U.S. as they are released much sooner (6-9 months earlier on average) plus being that I only use one brand of product, I already have the appropriate plugs and adapters. Yes, there are potential warranty issues if something goes wrong, but when I can buy 2 of the same item over there for the single item here, the risk is worthwhile. Now considering we are a lot closer to Japan where the product I use is made, wouldnt it be logical that it was cheaper here? No... purely because of the extra testing, certification etc etc that needs to be done.

Red tape, gotta love it.

[Daetarek]

I was just throwing up magical figures :) to give people more of a gist of the what i was trying to say :) agreed in IT and PABX's most companies attempt to make around 30% bare minimum with an average around 45% if possible, towards the consumer market anyways, when dealing with business it works quite different, but generally is only a few points off of that. And i know for certain that most of my local fish shops make around 200% to 300% on their livestock, silly people leaving order books on counters whilst serving other people :)

and having worked in a PABX distribution companies i can tell you that they were making a bare minimum of around 45% on almost all items, plus they get almost all of their money back from the GST cos all their stock transactions are b2b.

However if we are using a tesing system, which is less stringent than the ones from the other countries most specifically japan and germany in the cases we have mentioned, why should we even waste time retesting ? shouldn't the previous higher quality tests be enough ? or is this a case of government cashing in ?

[Proteus]

or is this a case of government cashing in

Cha-Ching... we have a winner...

Add to that insurance companies etc etc etc

Most new insurance policies have it in the fine print that if a fire or similar is started from a non-compliance electrical product, that your coverage is null and void. This isnt exactly new, but I can gaurantee that any policy that doesnt have that clause, will have very soon....

[Daetarek]

I guess we are sorta confusing this a little with figures anyhow, the point is that between the manufacturer to us the price probably increases around 2 to 3 times and most of that goes to the government anyways :(


Disclaimer:

These views are my own and are in no way endorsed or acknowledged by my Discus, as their views and in no way accept responseability for my comments.

:)

[taksan]

Aqacenta lost the Eheim importers franchise here due to them losing half their market share over 2 years due to pricing pressure from other brands and them being unable or unwilling to do anything about it. Now Bayfish (or whatever they are calling themselves ...its still Bayfish) have Eheim and I havern't seen much in the way of any improvement. Eheim are too expensive period ... they are even too expensive in Germany. Its got to be fixed and I don't mean by introducing lower range models like the Ecco's its their high end products that are too expensive and no longer offering the best value for money. Sure they outlast other filters and their quality is great but is it worth 2 1/2 times the price? I for one doubt it ! Its ok for people like me to keep buying Eheim's cause I have the money to afford it but not everyone is able or even prepared to spend that much on thier fish hobby without major bang for the buck. A example is the 2028 pro 2 its $500 odd ...now a exact chinese made copy the Aqua Pro CFM 1500 (note the M ...its not the old CF model with the dodgy taps) is $60.
That means you could have 8 of the Aqua pros for the price of one Ehiem and using the same media the performance is essentialy the same. Ok its noisey and you know its going to last maybe 4 years but you going to have to keep the Ehiem going for over 20 years before you are ahead on a cost basis. A cannister filter is a sealed bucket with a pump and a few pipes its not rocket science and believe me the cheaper brands (the ones that look a lot like straight out Eheim copies) work just fine for long enough to make it worth the risk for most normal fishkeeping folks.
Eheim are doing to their range what Mercedes did to the S class pushing it so far upmarket (without any real improvements) that it becomes unaffordable to all but the very high end users.

[Proteus]

Now Bayfish (or whatever they are calling themselves ...its still Bayfish)

AquaTopia

:wink:

[Daetarek]

Well i am not sure this is the fault of eheim as i mentioned previously i have friends in germany who can pick them up around $380 to $400 with media etc ... so i don't think its their fault, i suggest governements and importers are taking the pee a bit :(

[taksan]

Eheim Pro 3 in Germany 265 Euros (discount price) or $430 Aussie $
Fluval FX5 in Germany 244 Euros (discount price) or $396 Aussie $

Both prices are without media

Discount Prices in Australia
Ehiem $650
Fluval $315

In Europe the Ehiem is less then 10% more expensive then the Fluval
Over here the Eheim is more then TWICE the price

Now both filters are made in the EU and both are imported here by Australian distributors.

If thats not proof that Eheim is price gouging here then I don't know what is .....

[Proteus]

as per Taksans price summary, the cost price has the same trend.

The Eheim is over twice the amount of the Fluval

[Daetarek]

Is that the cost price from Eheim to the Disty or Disty to Shops ?

The reason i say this is that i work with avaya equipment and when the current distributor was the sole distributor their prices were vey high and it became exhorbitant to buy avaya because they had a corner on the market !!! No competition, but when a second distributor came to market, because avaya wanted to increase sales it all changed ... prices came to a reasonable level etc

I am not convinced that its all eheims fault at this point, i think the disty knows the product is the best, have a corner on the market, and think people will pay anything for it, so put a huge mark up on the price.

I have seen them in germany for a "EHEIM professionel 3 - 2080 - High Tech im XL Format der Zukunft! Selbst das original Media-Set ist im Preis enthalten." (pro3 + Media, taken straight from a web site) EUR 234.50 AU $381.30 and without media EUR 214.50 (AU $348.78)

I have seen them here offered up for as low as $500

In the US i have seen $314.99 (AU $430.90)

So i find it hard to believe Eheim would target Australia with such high pricing when they would be better off hitting a bigger market with higher prices

I don't doubt that they are twice as expensive as the Fluval but i must query where the price jump is and the reason for it, maybe someone uses a expensive shipping company, maybe they don't ship enough quantity for price breaks etc .... who knows but i do suggest that something is up when i have seen discounts on a product RRP $1000+ as was said earlier with discounts of 35% to 50%, i doubt the manufacturer is giving that sort of deal, in my experience manufacturers only give price breaks when dealing with big companies in very large quantities (in the case of Avaya with Tri-Corp(Piza Hut)), its usually the disty that gives most discounts say in the case of my company selling to a mid to large size client

on the other side is fluval on a sole disty deal, or is there competition there ? is it the same disty as eheims ? Remember some states have laws against price fixing, as Sony found out the hard way.

Food for thought i am just enjoying a good intelligent debate on some possibilities :)

[Proteus]

Is that the cost price from Eheim to the Disty or Disty to Shops ?

From Dist. to shops.

[Proteus]

on the other side is fluval on a sole disty deal, or is there competition there ? is it the same disty as eheims ?

Different suppliers


I have seen them here offered up for as low as $500

Given that the price is less than wholesale list cost I doubt that price, the only exception to that would be at the PIAA Trade show here a few months back. some super deals were on offer, but that was trade only. If someone was selling at that price, they lost money, that I can assure you of.

[Daetarek]

is there more than 1 fluval disty ?

[Proteus]

is there more than 1 fluval disty ?

No, Pets Pacific have Fluval

[Daetarek]

entirely possible but it is interesting to see that someone can do it that low, don't you think, unless they are bringing them in themselves

[Daetarek]

I guess i just don't wanna think that a german thinks they can control the world :)

but seriously i am not sure i can fully blame eheim for this debacle in pricing, i think there are other things here that we maybe don't know about

[Proteus]

entirely possible but it is interesting to see that someone can do it that low, don't you think, unless they are bringing them in themselves

If they brought it in themselves, you lose all warranty and servive support from the authorised Eheim supplier (they log serial numbers etc). So if you had a warranty issue, you would either be left with egg on your face, or the retailer would have a potentially expensive problem on there hands, especially if it was a back to base repair.

I know someone who purchased a UV from a european website, it had a wiring problem, to get warranty support it would have cost him almost AU$90 to send it back, plus have meant he was without the UV for up to 2 months. The same person contacted the supplier here and they refused to help, and personally, good on them for sticking to there guns. The unit was sent back, and it took almost 3 months before a new unit was received. Had that of been a filter you would have had a major problem. So if you buy something from someone who imports a product themself, check that you get support, or at least a replacement from the seller.

[Proteus]

I guess i just don't wanna think that a german thinks they can control the world

If it means more good German beer then they can control what they want

:lol:

[Daetarek]

:lol:

Good Call on the beer :wink:

I must admit i never knew that about the warranty stuff though, and i agree good on them for doing the right thing :)

[Proteus]

If you buy something here, you have full warranty support on most if not all goods.

Buy something from overseas, then you have to deal with it in the country you purchased the item in, and 99% of the time that means sending the item back at your expense.

[APW]

In light of discussions regarding this Canister filter, we are happy to announce that we will do something about it.

For today only (19th of March 2006) up until 9.30pm AEST we are offering the following:

Eheim Professionel III Canister Filter 2080 - NOW $579.95 (http://www.aquariumproductswholesale.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=3)