Thinking of a change????

[pitchblack]

hey all discus lovers. Im getting itchy feet again and have decided to remodel my tank and get a co2 system running. Its gonna cost a bucket load but its all worth it in the end. Keep looking at photo's of ducks competition pic and its driving me nutz. Ive got gravel at the moment as a substrate and want to change it to sand !!!

My question is if I do this will it upset the balance in the aquarium..
Will it have any affect on the ammonia or nitrate readings of zero..

Your help is appreciated..

[kalebjarrod]

you have to condsider a change like taht as if you where starting a new tank

the only benifit will be you will have a well seeded filter

you will need to watch all your normal paremeters for a while as the tank will mini cycle

your tank should settle quicker than a completely new system :wink:

[duck]

you have to condsider a change like taht as if you where starting a new tank

the only benifit will be you will have a well seeded filter

you will need to watch all your normal paremeters for a while as the tank will mini cycle

your tank should settle quicker than a completely new system :wink:
I agree.
If you keep aiming for Nitrate to be 0 you will always have problems with your plants.

[duck]

CO2 or no CO2

[pitchblack]

no co2 at the moment but im in the process of getting the gear for it just short of the cash at the moment

[duck]

CO2 or no CO2
What i meant was whether you have CO2 or no CO2 ,You will always have some sort of algea growing in your tank if you insist on keeping your nitrate at 0 and try to grow plant's at the same time.

[pitchblack]

so whats the best soltuion duck. I have had problems with the bba ive taken the plants out and put them in a seperate tank and am in the process of doing a total blackout for a few days. Hopefully it will kill the bba of my plants. I love the look of a planted aquarium. ive got the fish part down pact but now to tackle the plants. Im running two 4ft 1800kw power globes, and add liquid fertilizer weekly. Your help would be appreciated..

[duck]

ive got the fish part down pact but now to tackle the plants.
This is the part which has me thinking.
What i am thinking is that you want to keep discus in the best possible condition's,Then you want to keep plants under the same condition's.

[wyldchyld01]

hey all,

can i throw my two cents worth in,
whenever i read about plants being an issue it throws me...sure things like light are important, co2 is good, temp suits etc but i hardly ever see the simple things like putting in substrate like laterite or soil of some sort.

i have about 5cm (more in some areas to help with landscaping of tank) of laterite,mixed soil types (ie whatever is lying around and i can dig up),peat (decomposing also releases co2 and helps with tannins ph etc) and i make sure to keep a 2cm gap from the viewing sides of the tank so you don't see it after the pebbles/stones/sand etc has been added.

really simple and works like a charm

Brenton

[duck]

hey all,

can i throw my two cents worth in,
whenever i read about plants being an issue it throws me...sure things like light are important, co2 is good, temp suits etc but i hardly ever see the simple things like putting in substrate like laterite or soil of some sort.

i have about 5cm (more in some areas to help with landscaping of tank) of laterite,mixed soil types (ie whatever is lying around and i can dig up),peat (decomposing also releases co2 and helps with tannins ph etc) and i make sure to keep a 2cm gap from the viewing sides of the tank so you don't see it after the pebbles/stones/sand etc has been added.

really simple and works like a charm

Brenton
A lot of people have established tank's so adding a light and/or CO2 is easier.

[kevkoi]

and nice tanks look like this...

[pitchblack]

wow thats nutz. would love to create the same. can you tell me what to do in order to achieve this.

[kevkoi]

If you notice the label on the cabinet below the tanks say "ADA or Aqua Design Amano". ADA, Takashi Amano's brand is very popular over in Asia for planted tank setups. His products are rather expensive but seems to give very good results.

The tanks run off 6x compact fluro lighting, CO2 bubbling in at amost 2-3bubbles/sec and Amano's own very rich substrate.

I don't believe Amano's ADA line is in Australia yet. :cry:

[duck]

I believe that the ADA substrate have to be replace after a while.
But i could be wrong as that is what i have read.
I would like to add that Mr Amano tanks place the emphaisis on plants rather than fish.

[DR.V]

wow thats nutz. would love to create the same. can you tell me what to do in order to achieve this.

You need to order lots of things to create a tank like that.

One of them is a very serious CO2 setup and lighting.

[okrazykat]

It is very possibile to maintain a balance between the needs of discus and those of plants. I am still learning, but have come across a few pointers.
Plants require a higher pH and Carbonate hardness than do the fish. Minerals that the plants require will raise the General hardness as well. Temperature is another factor. Plants don't do well in the upper 80's (f).
Unless you're blessed with perfect tap-water conditions, you probably use RO/DI water for your discus. The pH might be at an even 7, but there is no mineral content after this process. You will have to add these elements back into the water, avoiding anything with phosphates, of course. The small amounts of phosphates and Nitrates needed by the plants will naturally occur with fish detrious and die-off, and these small amounts will be beneficial. High, unacceptable levels of Phosphates will cause algal blooms and precipitate calcium and magnesium, thus lowering the hardness of the water.
CO2 gas can be added to the aquarium by means of a tank and regulator system. Note that the introduction of CO2 gas will have no effect unless there is sufficient Carbonate hardness levels to make it available to the plants. Adding or maintaining a minimum KH will also help stabilize pH levels, which will in turn help maintain a balance between needs of fish and plants. CO2 addition will quickly lower the pH level in the water, to a certain extent. Too much CO2 will encourage algae growth and will lower oxygen levels in the water. A good balance for a planted tank will be a pH of 6.8, KH of 3.0, and CO2 of 15ppm. In fact, there is a relationship between the three factors. Altering the levels of pH or KH will either raise or lower the available CO2 in the tank. Of course, adding KH to the system will raise and buffer the pH to a certain point, and then lowering the pH again by injecting CO2, controlled by an electronic valve tied to a pH monitor, will bring things back into balance.
I don't see why these levels should be intolerable for discus (ph 6.8 and KH 3.0), if adjusted gradually.
Trace elements such as calcium and magnesium will need to be replaced as they are consumed by plants growth. Iron, essential to plant growth can be maintained fairly simply by adding a layer of iron and fertilizer-rich substrate under the gravel. Iron is leeched slowly from the substrate and is readily available to the roots of the plants. None of the trace elements mentioned will be any nuisance to the discus, as long as there is no build-up of any particular element.
Lighting for a planted tank will need to be approximately 3 watts per gallon, depending on tank depth and type of light. Anything in the 3,200k to 6,700k range will work, though the lower kelvin lamps will encourage more algae than the "bluer" lamps. With greater lighting, some might be concerned that discus will be uncomfortable. Balance this with a darker colored substrate and they will be happy swimming amongst the taller plant leaves.
Hope this helps.

[okrazykat]

Also consider that sand (inert) is much finer than gravel. Planted tanks are already harder to vacuum as you must avoid roots, and ground-cover plants such as hairgrass and chain-swords. Sand is nearly impossible to vacuum sucessfully. You will eventually get a toxic build-up of nitrates. With sand, it would be difficult to sucessfully run an undergravel-filter either traditional or reverse-flow, as the particulate matter and additives would become embedded in the substrate. Lastly, the larger-grained Laterite or Iron-rich plant substrate would rise above the sand level and the sand would be hidden below. You'd end up with a substate of plant fertilizer visible, and the ineffective sand out of site.
Plants don't require sand, and do well with gravel.

[pitchblack]

THANKS FOR THE ADVICE. I KEEP MY KH AT 120PPM AND THE PH AT 6.8 SO IM FINE THERE FROM YOUR POINT. nOW JUST THE INTRODUCTION OF THE CO2

[okrazykat]

I don't see how you could have KH 120ppm and a pH of 6.8 unless you are using some artificial means of buffering the water. The relationship between KH, pH, and CO2 tell us that you have a lethal amount of CO2 in your system already (32ppm), before injection. I say lethal in the sense that you fish would be at the top gasping for Oxygen. The only way that would be possible is if you have replaced your natural carbonate buffering with one based on phosphates, etc. Are you sure that your reading for carbonate hardness and not general hardness? Are you sure you've never used any product that contains phosphates? Have you checked for phosphates lately in your water. Phosphates in large amounts will throw off any carbonate hardness test reading and give you a false result. It appears to me that you've been using some product to either lower the pH or raise the KH artificially. You understand the math doesn't add up.
The right way to do this is to establish a KH (usually that of the source of water will be good), then lower the pH with the use of CO2 (creating carbonic acid as a by product) until you reach the optimum balance. Usually lowering the KH does not work well in the long run because it means precipitating minerals to get a lower reading. These mineral elements are needed by the plants. Alternately, raising the KH by adding Calcium Carbonate or Sodium Bicarbonate will raise the pH proportionately, and will make it that much more difficult to bring the pH back down. If the normal KH of your source water is truly 120ppm, then the pH would be somewhere around 7.8. In that case, your target pH (by injecting CO2) will be around 7.1, to give you a reading of about 16ppm CO2.
Like I said, we're in the same boat leaning this stuff. I Hope this helps.

[pitchblack]

yes okrazykat i do add some buffing agent that raises the kh level to 120ppm or around 4 -5dg. I got this tip from a comercial aquarium plant grower. He told me to keep the kh over 100ppm for the plants. Im not sure about the phosphates because ive only tested it once and it came up preety high around 10 from memory. Does the phosphates throw the kh reading??? i didnt know that. I understand the relationship between ph and kh they balance each other. My GH from the tap water is quite low in melb about 25ppm so my Gh reading is around 2gd or 40ppm. Ive got the spray bar from the filter below the water level as not to break the surface and my fish arent gasping for air at all. The discus love staying at the middle if not the lower part of the tank as to swin between the plants and drift wood. So im a bit confused as to why you would say the the co2 level in my tank is lethal.

[pitchblack]

yes okrazykat i do add some buffing agent that raises the kh level to 120ppm or around 4 -5dg. I got this tip from a comercial aquarium plant grower. He told me to keep the kh over 100ppm for the plants. Im not sure about the phosphates because ive only tested it once and it came up preety high around 10 from memory. Does the phosphates throw the kh reading??? i didnt know that. I understand the relationship between ph and kh they balance each other. My GH from the tap water is quite low in melb about 25ppm so my Gh reading is around 2gd or 40ppm. Ive got the spray bar from the filter below the water level as not to break the surface and my fish arent gasping for air at all. The discus love staying at the middle if not the lower part of the tank as to swin between the plants and drift wood. So im a bit confused as to why you would say the the co2 level in my tank is lethal.

[okrazykat]

There is a direct relation between KH, pH, and CO2 content. The formula dictates that a KH of 120ppm and a pH of 6.8 equates to a CO2 level of 32ppm, which is impossibly high for water to contain without large, regular injections of CO2. What I was saying is not that you have a very high CO2 level in your system, but that the pH or KH readings must be off. From there I deduced that the high presence of Phosphates must be throwing off your KH test.
By the way, a CO2 reading of 32ppm is not necessarily lethal, but would be too much over any long period, reducing the availability of Oxygen. 10 to 15ppm is plenty for a heavily planted tank. This question is, or course moot, because you don't really have a level of 32ppm CO2 at present. Normal water has around 3 to 5 ppm CO2 straight from the tap.
A KH of 120ppm is fine for a planted tank, especially with discus. But I assume that the pH has been altered with Phosphate buffers to achieve the 6.8? Those same buffers will have replaced the Carbonates in your water, that normally buffer the acidity, and are giving you a false KH reading. A true KH reading is based only on the amount of Carbonate Hardness, whereas a misreading will combine Phosphates and Carbonates together. Therefore your actual Carbonate Hardness will be well below the 120ppm level.
Once you reduce the Phosphate with water changes, bringing them down to below 2.0, you will be able to measure the actual pH and KH of the water. At that point you will adjust the amount of CO2 injection to lower the pH to the correct level, which will in turn give you the optimum amount of available CO2.
There are some good sites out there that explain this a lot better than I can.
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm
http://aquaticconcepts.thekrib.com/Articles/Water_Chemistry.htm
With a little help I've been able to turn my tank from a potential disaster into a thing of beauty. Thanks for hanging in there with me.

ps- who is that on your avatar?

[pitchblack]

ok so in total drop the level of phosphates in the water. Ill be buying some stuff that locks the phosphates up and the filter removes it. Then test the water but until then leave the kh to its natural state. Thanks for the advice im still trying to get the hang of this. Its frustrating a bit but im sure it will pay off the in the end. By the way what other advice can you give me in regards to setting up. im getting ready to install a co2 system so I want the water to be ready before I act on this.

[pitchblack]

no sorry just checked the values for you

ph 6.8
kh at around 100ppm
so from the calculator
my co2 is 26.6

but as i read from the article the phosphates must be throwing my readings out. thanks for that ill tackle the phosphate problem then.!!!!

[okrazykat]

The best way to remove unwanted phosphates (that BTW are causing your algae problem, no doubt) is by eliminating the source of the problem. Phosphates are not only added by pH reducing buffers, but also by decomposing material. Vacuuming the gravel and cleaning your filters will help a lot more than buying a Phosphate Pad. Once you've removed the source of the problem, water changes will take care of the rest.
What are the levels in your tap water?
What exactly are these two 4ft 1800kw power globes? I don't understand what 1800kw means. And what is a power globe?
What are the dimensions of the tank?
What liquid fertilizer are you adding weekly? What are the contents of it?
Have you decided on a substrate?
And again, who is that in your avatar?

[pitchblack]

Ok my tanks is a 4x2x1.5 ft tank. The lights are 40w and a 37w power glow is the brand. For planted tanks. Im doing my regular water change tom so ill clean the filter out and I know that the phosphates are causing the problem with the alge, ive been trying like a mad mad to get rid of them. Im adding liquid fertiliser weekly not sure if it has phosphates in it at all. It just says it contains iron and trace elements. Im keeping the gravel. in the arvart is snoop doggy dogg. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[pitchblack]

ooh by the way if i put riccia in the tank will it drop the phosphate levels as well??????

[okrazykat]

I doubt the Fertilizer contains phosphates.
I wouldn't worry about Riccia right now. The phosphate problem is easy enough to fix.
You will need better lighting. 150watts over a 90 gallon tank is not enough. You should aim for a ratio of 2.5:1 for most plants.
Vacuum the gravel well rid the phosphates, if you haven't already. You may need to do some heavy waterchanges to get the levels back down. You may end up with a higher pH, so space them out over a week's period to reduce stress on the plants and fish. You will eventually get rid of all that buffering junk you've been tossing in there as well, which is great. If your tap water is really naturally soft, it won't take much to adjust it to where it needs to be.
Check the levels of the tap water you use before and after whatever treatment you add. This will help explain how your water got to the stage it's at now.

[okrazykat]

If you PM me, then others won't have the benefit of joining in this good discussion.
Quote:
"my ph is 6.8
gh 36ppm
iron 0.25
kh ???? because of the phosphates
and ammonia and nitrate is 0

so no more buffers and clean the filters and a big gravel vac, 50% water change will that help the phosphate level. Anything else I can do im getting sick of the alge blooms and getting the co2 system in the next few weeks.???? "

It may take more than 50% to drop the phospahte level if it's over 10.

[duck]

If you PM me, then others won't have the benefit of joining in this good discussion.

That's not very nice now is it you should of PM him to PM you back.

[duck]

I just tested my Ph=6.3 KH4 which means i would have a CO2 of over 40ppm and my fish are fine

[pitchblack]

so duck can you explain what all this actually means if your ph is at 6.3 then your co2 is at 40ppm im getting confused here??????????? because of the article posted before which give you a guide on the co2 levels

[duck]

Get somne extra light's what i would recomend to start one thing at a time or you will have a brain melt down.
This should give you an idea PH-KH=CO2.

http://www.sfbaaps.com/reference/table_01.shtml

[okrazykat]

I didn't see anything wrong with posting part of the PM. And I was hoping someone else like yourself would join in this discussion and give us some insight. It would become confusing to an outsider trying to follow the course, if there were gaps left by the PMs.
No offense to you pitchblack. I wish you all the best.

[duck]

I didn't see anything wrong with posting part of the PM. And I was hoping someone else like yourself would join in this discussion and give us some insight. It would become confusing to an outsider trying to follow the course, if there were gaps left by the PMs.
No offense to you pitchblack. I wish you all the best.

I was reading your post's with interest,IMO it got a little to big and complicated.
It is recommended to keep you CO2 at least 30ppm now alot of people a using Tom Barr's EI(Estimative Index), You get the CO2 going at even a higher level,Of course without killing your fish or stressing them, then over dose your fert's,Then a 50% WC everyweek to reset you tank.
It's a little more to it then the way i just explain it,But once you get the hang of it is very easy plus you test less if at all i rarely test my water.

[pitchblack]

Ok then. the update is as follows.

I have changes 50% of the water, cleaned the filter, and brought a phosphate test kit.

the readings are as follows

ph. 7.0
kh 3
gh 2
iron 0.25
ammonia 0
nirtarte 0
and phosphate 1.0 or 17.99ppm

so it that a desirable tank level to have by all those readings