Andrew Soh on treating Velvet disease (oodinium) in discus.

[Merrilyn]

I asked Andrew for his comments on treating discus with Velvet, and he was kind enough to offer the following advice.

There are 2 methods. The first one is to use Copper Sulphate and it must be chelated either with acidic acid or some others. These are all quite unsafe as it is not very stable after a day or two and may become toxic especially in soft water. Best to use the proprietory ones (prepared by manufacturer as it is chelated with a secret formula....I also like to know what they use..he!he!)

The safest and the best method is to use long bath with salt. The dose is 2 ppt(200gm per 100liter of water) for one month and by the next month, every one of the oodinium will be gone forever....believe me.
Whenever you change water, add back the same dose or concentration.

***Important to note: Once you start treatment, never feed your discus with live or frozen freshwater Aquatic animal like tubiflex or Bloodworm. If you still believe that it is a must to feed all these and to pamper your discus, forget about the treatment...the problem will come back as these are the carriers of oodinium and many other pathogens.

We don't need to pamper discus with live or frozen aquatic animals just because discus live in water. We can change their diet to beefheart, porkheart, turkey heart, or proceesed dry food.....just like humans have unawarely change their own diet to include rice and pasta....I don't remember in history class....early man(cave man) running around in their birthday-suit already know how to make bread....do you know??? Are all the early man born with a genetic disposition to eat and to catch crabs and prawns in the river. If we just eat fish, prawns and crab with pasta.....we may live a long life........interestingly, this is more than what my mum is doing for the past 25 years and she is now 86. She eats only rice and fish.....these are all very alien to the very early man.

If some feel that we deprive them of their natural diet....put them back in the Amazon river.....better this way.

Warmest regards,
Andrew

[jim from sydney]

The safest and the best method is to use long bath with salt. The dose is 2 ppt(200gm per 100liter of water) for one month and by the next month, every one of the oodinium will be gone forever....believe me.
Whenever you change water, add back the same dose or concentration.

***Important to note: Once you start treatment, never feed your discus with live or frozen freshwater Aquatic animal like tubiflex or Bloodworm. If you still believe that it is a must to feed all these and to pamper your discus, forget about the treatment...the problem will come back as these are the carriers of oodinium and many other pathogens.

Andrew
Ladyred....is Andrew suggesting here that frozen bloodworms are a no..no..during treatment????? where does this place the proof that all bacteria and other nasties are culled in the processing of frozen bloodworms?????If so this is totally contradictory to the manufactureres claim.....and needs clarification.....Jim

[Andrew Soh]

Hello Jim,

Live feed like bloodworms are basically growing in the substrate of streams or cultured tanks and co-exiting together with parasites is unavoidable.

In my years of ornamental fish farming (2 hetres land), we are constantly searching for better quality feed for our ornamental fish production and we have noticed the effect of different live and frozen feed in term of growth rate, health, parasite count and the possibility of infection under different condition. All the experiments were done with different feed under well controlled condition. My present opinion was a conclusion from my experiment.

I do agree with you, Jim, that certain manufacturers claim that their product are 100% sterile. I don't deny their claims...maybe it is unfortunate that I have not come across the products of such manufacturers.....my apology.

Jim, maybe my knowledge is still very shallow.....and cannot find an answer to how a special chemical or treatment or a UV used by manufacturers can destroy even the eggs or cyst of certain parasites like the gill fluke without disintegrating the bloodworms. How about those parasites just ingested by the worms before treatment. Is there such treatment that can eliminate ot destroy such parasites in the gut while leaving the worms whole and beautiful? Don't you think such cysts and ingested parasites may be in a state of hibernation? I truely need to learn and know. Please enlighten.

And for those who are dealing with such products or are manufacturers of such......and you feel offended......my apology..for I am just talking straight. It is written in my book too...but in my book..I said that 'unless the manufacturer can ensure 100% disinfection'........

Once again, my apology those who feel offended.

Warmest regards,
Andrew :angel

[Merrilyn]

No need for an apology Andrew. Everyone is encouraged to express an opinion here.

Experiences differ from one fishkeeper to another. What may be successful for one, is not successful for another, but all opinions are welcomed.

Jim, I think the thing here is to read as much information as you can, and then form your own opinion.

Just to give you an idea, when I went into Discus many years ago, it was recommended that you feed tubifex worms as the main diet. At that time, we all fed them worms and wondered why some of our fish sickened and went black, and eventually died. There seemed to be no cure, and no reason for some of them falling ill. Now we know that feeding tubifex is about the worst thing you can do, but for a long time, it was a very acceptable practice.

Andrew has obviously found problems with feeding frozen bloodworm. Personally I have not. But I will certainly be thinking long and hard before I buy another batch of bloodworms. :P

[Andrew Soh]

:D Well said Ladyred.

Warmest regards,
Andrew :angel

[Officerlungy]

Jim ,

If so this is totally contradictory to the manufactureres claim.....and needs clarification.....Jim

I disagree with Andrew Soh :wink:

I have fed Frozen blood worm for years on many American / Asian /
African /Madagascian/Tropical/ Australian/ Catfishes / loaches etc etc !and so on and so on ! ... I have personally never incurred any problems at all due to this feeding process :P ... as far as i am concerned Bloodworm is sterile ( 'cause it's frozen ) and also it is not too nourishing at all either, fish just like the taste 'simple' ... Try this !!! Thaw a packet of bloodworm out , spin it up in a blender and drain all the fluid out !
You'll soon see what is left as far as product goes .... http://www.drumpak.com/forum/images/smiles/121.JPG ...




Ladyred....is Andrew suggesting here that frozen bloodworms are a no..no..during treatment?????

Yes it seems so .... http://www.drumpak.com/forum/images/smiles/shrug.gif

I have fed FROZEN BLOODWORM to all of the above during the process of
treatment (provided they want food ) and have had many successful recoveries due to this ...


where does this place the proof that all bacteria and other nasties are culled in the processing of frozen bloodworms?????

Anything frozen is killed , it's not like eggs or cysts are going to re-generate 'NATURALLY' after a frozen period , after the destruction or disintigration of the host in the process, it is not going to happen. Therefore the fishes intake is off a mass substance that has nutritional deteriation only :wink: Still consumable and tastes full and harmless , Unless introduced in an over thawed state where bacteria can form ie: beyond 20 min thaw time puts your food at risk ! ...
Lets not forget that fish have an immune system as we do , and they know whats "OFF" and whats not . JMO .

Andy... :wink:

[Andrew Soh]

Hello Andy,

Opinion defers. In my experience, there is no such a thing as an immediate reaction after consuming frozen bloodworms but certain will surface later. It all depends on the kind of pathogens.....for some protozoans, they may surface ealier while others proliferate later when the condition favours them.

As ladyred said, her discus have been taking bloodworms and seems to do no harm. I just wonder where those velvet disease comes from...so I suggested to her the possibility as velvet, Piscinoodinium, does not airborne .

I need to agree with you since you said that you have kept so many wonderful fishes from all over the world and you have been feeding them with frozen bloodworms and have never incurred any problem at all.

You also mentioned that you have fed them with frozen bloodworms during treatment and the worms did not affect the fishes recovery rate.
YOU MEAN THE ABOVE FISHES DID FALL SICK ONCE IN AWHILE??? Because of what???

I also agree that after squeezing out the blood, what is left is nothing but calcium(shell) and whatever stuck with it. But you have just thrown away the proteins in the blood and whatever is in it.

You mean freezing at minus 3 to 4 degree can kill even the cyst of micro-organism? Whe the product is frozen up to that level, what do you think, with all the packaging, plastic and etc..., the temperature in the center of the cube and how long it takes to freeze all the way into the center???

Forgive me...just my opinion,
Andrew :angel [/b]

[Proteus]

I just noticed something a little left of centre

(sorry Andy)


I have fed FROZEN BLOODWORM to all of the above during the process of treatment (provided they want food ) and have had many successful recoveries due to this ...


Forgive me if I am wrong, but whilst medicating fish, isnt it best not to feed them at all??

[Merrilyn]

Most of the major breeders who have published information on discus diseases (Wattley, Degen, Au, Reeves etc.) seem to recommend feeding food soaked in medication, so the drug goes straight into the stomach where it does the most good.

I've always fed fish who were undergoing treatment, but I'd be pleased to hear the opinions of others.

[Fishpimpin73]

I stopped feeding FBW a couple years ago when one of the manufacturers issued an actual statement regaurding certain pathogens that could "possibly" survive through the "freezing" process.

On top of that..........

Working in the industry, I noticed that sometimes the foods would arrive in a semi frozen state from the distributors.

I have gotten to the point that I ONLY feed ONE brand of FBS to my fish and that is bc it is a trusted brand to breeders and culturists that I KNOW PERSONALLY.

Since I stopped feeding BW and other frozen foods.........

I have not lost a fish, except to NTD.

As for the medicating and feeding goes.......

It depends what you are treating.

Some meds deliver the best when taken with food.

Something that I adopted from my SW days is foods that include garlic.
Nothing like a food that the fish seem to just LOVE and boost thier immune sys at the same time :wink:

JM2C

[Officerlungy]

there is no such a thing as an immediate reaction after consuming frozen bloodworms but certain will surface later.

Wont do them much good once they are inside a fishes stomach tho will
it , considering stomach fluids break down bone ...
I am going to eat a tin 'o' brine cysts now , and when i pass them i will
see if i can hatch them in a glass of milk ( yes i'll put rock salt in too ) .



I need to agree with you since you said that you have kept so many wonderful fishes from all over the world and you have been feeding them with frozen bloodworms and have never incurred any problem at all.

Your quoting out of context there :) FBW is not the total diet ... *SLAP*


YOU MEAN THE ABOVE FISHES DID FALL SICK ONCE IN AWHILE??? Because of what???

Certainly not because of FBW Andrew , your grasping for straws now :wink:




You mean freezing at minus 3 to 4 degree can kill even the cyst of micro-organism?

Perhaps not ! , But the stomach fluid as pre-mentioned will ... :lol:

You look cute when yer flustered Slothy .... :wink:


Wol ,
I believe that if a fish will take food , Medicating or not !
it is benificial to the fishes health/recovery !
Same with us , if were eating we are getting neccessary intake
to promote immune stability to combat nasty's ... :wink:

Andy... :P

[Fishpimpin73]

Wont do them much good once they are inside a fishes stomach tho will it , considering stomach fluids break down bone ...

Ok Andy,

What if the pathogen is "water borne"?

If that is the case then it could be an environmental trigger.

There are too many variables involved for you to come right out and say that Andrew's theory is full on wrong.

You do what works for your fish..........
Others will do the same.

BTW - I dare you to eat those BS eggs :P

Brine shrimp hatching tanks are also home to billions of nasties.
As far as I know there is only one company that 100% stands behind thier product, and has done MAJOR things to insure that their products are the best that they can be and that is SFB.

[jim from sydney]

I have gotten to the point that I ONLY feed ONE brand of FBS to my fish and that is bc it is a trusted brand to breeders and culturists that I KNOW PERSONALLY.




bc what brand name does it stand for??...JIm

[Andrew Soh]

Hello Andy,

I don't know where you are from as you have not revealed your location...hmmm...but it is O.K.....what you mentioned in the previous posting and now...are very cute......and I am sure those reading your postings know what you are trying to do.

I will just leave it as that.............................................. ...............

Hello Fishpimpim73,

...I don't know who you are but you are abolutely right about Frozen bloodworms and Brine shrimp eggs. BSE carries with them Vibro sp. bacterium..besides others and that is why the Artemia Reference Center, Belgium (my mentor) recommends that BS eggs should be decapsulated to remove the shell leaving only the membrane before putting them to hatch. Even the area between the shell and the membrane can contain bacteria....amazing!!! :ug

Merrilyn is right! Breeders in general do advise feeding medicated food during treatment while the discus are still soaking in medicated water. But feeding with such is done near to the end of treatment when they are willing to eat and not in the initial stage of treatment as that may foul the water.

Warmest regards to all...including Andy,
Andrew :angel

[Fishpimpin73]

bc what brand name does it stand for??...JIm

Actually Jim,

BC = because.

As for the brand that we use, It is The San Francisco Bay brand ( When it comes to BS they are the BEST!! ).

Not to say that it is the only Frozen food that I feed..............

Just the only frozen LIVE food that I feed.



Hello Fishpimpim73,

...I don't know who you are

That is quite ok............

I don't know who I am either :lol:

Let alone who you are......

I just figured that I would pipe in with things that I have learned while keeping fish.

There was an epidemic a few years ago here in the states.
It was linked to nasties in frozen foods, namely BW and BS.

My whole goal is to save at least ONE fish.

As a hobbyist, if I can achieve that.................

Then my job here is complete :wink:

[Andrew Soh]

Hi There,
Now I know you are from the states........

Maybe see you around in the ACA? :coffee

warmest regards,
Andrew :angel

[Fishpimpin73]

I'm a member of the ACA.

Went to Denver last year.

Won't be going to Dallas this year.

TOO HOT!

But maybe sometime in the future we can hook up at the con :wink:

[mistakes r crucial]

Acriflavin based drugs are a well documented treatment for Velvet and apparently it's the treatment of choice for many.
MAC

[Andrew Soh]

:) Hello Mac,
Just to throw a thought:

Prolong use of acriflavine can result in resistance. As to whether it can eliminate Velvet....I am not sure.

If hobbyists doubt the effectiveness of normal salt...Sodium Chloride (which in fact works very well and safe), use the chelated copper sulphate sold in the aquarium shops..manufactured by high standard and reputated producers of aquarium products. Copper in short term should not harm plants and defintely not nitrifying bacteria.

Warmest regards,
Andrew :angel

[Fishpimpin73]

However when using copper you have to be careful if your tank is host to ANY form of invert.

Copper KILLS many inverts IMMEDIATELY, which can create a massive shift in chem and can cause serious tank crashes.

Although copper is an EXCELLENT deterent to many FW nasties, the popular opinion is that if you are concerned about these micro orgs UV is the way to go.

Especially in planted aquaria, where snails ( i.e. MTS ) are a major benefit.

Although there are supposedly some "safe" forms of copper..........
I haven't come across enough info to "trust" those products.

Just my 2 cents :wink:

[Andrew Soh]

Hello Fishpimpin73,
I believe you have a point there and absolutely right.

Most probably in our hatchery setting, clinical tanks are often used so I do not pay much attention to planted and inverts.

Have used chelated coper sulphate (locally known as 'Copper safe') on set-up tanks on a few occasions but did not see adverse effect. Maybe not enough study on my part to affirm viability.

UV is unable to kill protozoans including velvet. To this,we have tried for a few years...but you are right if used against bacteria.

Regards,
Andrew :angel

[Fishpimpin73]

Several breeders have told me that in order to have "disease free" fishies.................( or as close as possible )

You have to use copper AND UV, fish "only" tanks, and be super picky about the "tools" ( i.e. nets and so on ) that you use.

Personally, I QT EVERYTHING.

Fish, plants, boil all of my EQ, driftwood, rocks, and gravel etc.

I have a bad habit of keeping wild imports, bc of my affliction I HAVE to be UBER paranoid when it comes to the things that go into my tanks.

No "chances" taken here.........

And bc of that, I haven't lost a fish in quite sometime.
Other than from the above mentioned causes.

If I was to be in the situation that many others have found themeselves in, I would deff isolate ANY new fish coming into my house.

[Andrew Soh]

Hi,

Good to know you have good husandry practices.

In fish keeping, the underlining factor is prevention of cross-contamination..be it from fish to fish, or food to fish, or fish to plants to fish, or fish to EQ to fish...or invert to fish......he! he! long-winded.

Warmest regards,
Andrew :angel

[sammigold]

did somebody say they feed their fish Garlic??? Or did I read wrong??

[Proteus]

Garlic is one of the best anti-oxidants you can provide your fish. (best mixed with Beefheart or Seafood mix)

[Andrew Soh]

Hello Sammi,
Besides what Proteus said, garlic also has a certain anti-viral property. Further advantages include slow down the growth or kill sixty types of fungus and more than 20 types of bacteria.

Garlic has allicin, a sulfur compound that has antibiotic qualities.

Usually the dose in mix is around 20gm to 1 kg of animal meal. In most cases, any higher mix ratio of garlic, discus reject and will not eat.


regards,
Andrew

[Kaza]

I too have had no problems feeding FBW to by fish, however my concern is every time I feed them my eyes swell up, become itchy and very sore. I have spoken to a number of people who have had the same problems. I wonder what is in the BW that is causing this and I have to think if it creates a reaction in so many people, what does it do to fish longterm. What about stunting growth?? I have always wondered why some fish growth is stunted even when given the best of everything could this be due to allery reaction?

[sammigold]

Thanks guys!! That is very interesting. I used to eat garlic (in the odourless capsule form!) by the truckload for that very reason (antibiotic, great for getting rid of colds) It also lowers blood pressure for people with high blood pressure. So I had to stop eating it as I have lower than normal blood pressure anyway. :roll: Has anybody ever done a test on discus blood pressure. Is that possible? Probably a very stupid question but an interesting one nevertheless IMO. :lol: :lol:

[Proteus]

In regards to blood pressure, I dont know how that could be determined.

One aspect which can be observed, is there breathing (which in turn would be an indication of there heart rate).

Discus should be taking long and slow breath's, I find when my Discus are happy, one mouth movement every 2-3 seconds.

[sammigold]

Proteus, that is a good thing to know. thanks 8-) 8-)

[Andrew Soh]

Sammi,
Just to let you know. Whenever I feel uneasy and that my body seemed not right, I will immediately take 'truckload' of raw garlic for the next few day...and everything comes back to normal.

Cheers to Garlic

[sammigold]

yeah garlic!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :wave

[Benny]

Im curious, if UV cannot kill protozoans, does the Gamma radiation of all imported FBW kill these???? I would hope so but want other peoples oppinions

[fishgeek]

UVc radiation does kill protozoa and will also damage protozoa cysts

UVc radiation will lead to energy entering the target cells fusing dna and preventing replication of the cell's


gamma radiation is similarly damaging to cellular dna , again emitting high energy photons to damage nuclear material

obviously these things are dose dependant and time sensitive as far as exposure and organism susceptibilty

andrew

[aks]

bravo everyone this is a very educating discussion

[syxx]

as with most of these sticky posts, good info and great disscussion

[FinVision P/L]

No need for an apology Andrew. Everyone is encouraged to express an opinion here.

Experiences differ from one fishkeeper to another. What may be successful for one, is not successful for another, but all opinions are welcomed.

Jim, I think the thing here is to read as much information as you can, and then form your own opinion.

Just to give you an idea, when I went into Discus many years ago, it was recommended that you feed tubifex worms as the main diet. At that time, we all fed them worms and wondered why some of our fish sickened and went black, and eventually died. There seemed to be no cure, and no reason for some of them falling ill. Now we know that feeding tubifex is about the worst thing you can do, but for a long time, it was a very acceptable practice.

Andrew has obviously found problems with feeding frozen bloodworm. Personally I have not. But I will certainly be thinking long and hard before I buy another batch of bloodworms. :P

Hi I think the reason Andrew may have had trouble with feeding frozen bloodworms is that in his country they may not be Gamma irradiated , all imported frozen fish food into Australia has been gamma irradiated at 50,000 k which is pretty high and would eliminate any pathogens i.e. parasites. Obviously this also has some effect on the nutrition value for the diner. This is a requirement by AQIS now re named as DAFF. I hope this helps