Male eating eggs....

[fishomc]

Hi all.

I'm new to discus and have recently acquired a pair of red scribbelt stendkers. The shop I go them from said they spawns in store and the male ate the eggs shortly after. They are spawning now in my tank and again the male is eating the eggs. He seems not to be attempting to fertilise them at all, instead causally pecking away at the eggs as the female continues to deposit.

My question is, is this something the male is likely to "get right" with more attempts, or is he forever not going understand his role and eat each batch they produce.

They fish are approx 13cm.

Any thoughts/experienced from others would be greatly appreciated.



cheers. :D

[scott bowler]

hi there fishomc welcome to the forum , well you can try to cage the eggs ,but that depends on where they lay them , or you can take the male out . see how it goes . some times they stop doing it but some times they just keep doing it are they a young pair ?

[fishomc]

Thanks Scott. I dont think caging the eggs is suitable in this case as the eggs are basically being eaten as the female lays them....the male is not even making passes over the eggs to fertilise them.

Not sure on the age of the pair to be honest....however i would say they would be newly formed pair. I suspect they were purchased from AI (wholesaler) by the shop i got them from recently as individuals, not as a pair, and have since bonded.

Here is an average pic of the pair, you cant see in the pic but the male is behind and has pretty long streamer on the dorsal fin.

I actually only got them Monday and they spawned this afternoon....so have barely had time to look around the new tank!

cheers.

[Nathan5]

Hi fishomc have patience they will get it right I have a pair where the male ate the first 5 spawns going behind the female eating not fertilizing now i have 70 nearly two month old discus i'm growing out from that pair I know it's frustrating but give them 5 to 10 attempts if you don't have another male to pair

[fishomc]

Thanks Nathan.

I thought this might be the case.......fingers crossed he's just a novice and quick learner.

cheers.

[Merrilyn]

Wondering if you really do have a pair, or if it's two females. It's not unknown for two females to spawn together in the absence of a male.

Best thing to do is observe the spawning tubes of both fish. The female has a wide, blunt tube, just big enough for the eggs to pass through. The male has a smaller "v" shape tube. The difference is quite obvious when you see the two side by side.

[fishomc]

Thanks Merrilyn.

I'll check next time they spawn. I was under the impression though that it Is only males that can get the streamer on the dorsal fin, females will never get it. Here is a good pic I got today with my digi slr, male at top....note pointed dorsal streamer.

[Nathan5]

You are right about the male (streamer) they look very nice beautiful pair

[Merrilyn]

Streamers can develop on both male and female fish with age. I had a magnificent blue diamond confirmed female with a long streamer.

[fishomc]

Thanks Merrilyn.

I'm not sure on the age of these 2, assuming they have been grown under good conditions ( water, quality food, etc), what approx age should they be at 12-13cm?

Cheers.

[fishomc]

Also, the female now just hangs out looking/fanning the pipe where the eggs were. She has gone very dark. Is this normal?

cheers

[swifto]

It sure is she is just prepping/cleaning ready for another spawn.Looking at your male in pic here appears to b showing himself to the female this indication is a sign of readiness for spawning good luck.

[fishomc]

Thanks for the reply swifto.

They do seem to do a lot of displaying and shaking/twitching to one another. Often they will catch the sight of the other across the tank and move towards each other in an arching motion, often bowing heads. I have noticed too sometimes their face/gill plate seems to get slightly darker also.

Noticed the male cleaning the pipe on occasion today, so perhaps in the next day or two they'll try again.

They certainly have a mesmerizing quality, I find myself sitting in front of the tank watching this courtship/pair behavior.

cheers.

[Merrilyn]

The length of the ventral fins is usually a good indication. I'm guessing your two are between 12 to 18 months. The female is dead keen to spawn. Hope the boy gets his act together soon :)

Lots of us manage to spend a few hours in front of the tank. We all seem to have the same addiction.

[fishomc]

Update.

They spawned again this morning (on the cone i provided them), and so far so good. I didn't see them spawn but obviously the male hasn't eaten them this time, and going by the color they appear fertile (only 5 or 6 white ones). I assume if they weren't fertilised they would have started to go white by now?

A very quick pic:

[fishomc]

Ok approx 24hours in a maybe half have got white, the odd fungused too. To my eye I cant see any change in color to other eggs, so not hopeful of any fertilised/wrigglers :?

[Nathan5]

Hi fishomc here is a video of how I use methylene blue to prevent fungus with great success If you want to have a look 4 next time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KHzs_U7pZI&feature=c4-overview&list=UUfDSkKsZEzpwL1ttk-jWugQ

[Merrilyn]

Don't give up hope yet. You could still have fertile eggs in that lot. Fingers crossed for you :)

[fishomc]

Yep thanks merrilyn, first little wriggler this morning!

I'd say about 100 good eggs to go. What a bonus! Just happy to see that first wriggler so I know I have a fertile pair now.

Nathan, thanks for the link. I have used meth blue in the past on various other species eggs, it can certainly be useful.

Cheers.

[Nathan5]

No problem IL PM you after a few months when you have some juveniles for sale :)

[Merrilyn]

Yaaaaaay. Congratulations :wave1

[fishomc]

Update:

40+ Free-swimmers feeding off parents today.

Exceeding my expectations of this young pair :D

cheers.

[Hooked]

Well done!

It's a good buzz isn't it?

Cheers

[fishomc]

Update. Almost day 3 as free-swimmers and I count about 25 fry.

My only concern today is that parents seem to be becoming a little restless. They are display and carrying on to one another, often zooming about the tank leaving the fry alone in a corner.

Should i be worrying about this?

Thanks.

cheers.

[Nathan5]

It is quite normal for them to do this worry or not there is nothing you can do except pull the fry out if they start eating them or pull the parent that's doing the eating.Think of it as a experiment this is your first bach from this pair I have 4 pairs all have eaten their first spawn If the spawn is too small they will often see it as not worth the trouble to raise them and soon will start to spawn again. If I were you I would let them sort out what they want to do because as they say PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT

[fishomc]

Thanks Nathan.

Well it seems they were keen to spawn again as they are laying eggs again now. Still about 20 odd fry feeding of them, so fingers crossed they allow them to continue feeding.

I have started feeding live newly hatched baby brine shrimp, but cant see any taking them yet. Am prepared to take the fry from the parents should there still be some in a few days and feeding on BBS.

[fishomc]

Eggs layed and male ate them, probably a good result!

[fishomc]

Update.

Well female seemed pretty disinterested in raising the fry, were only about 12 left on the morning of day 4 (day after they laid more eggs). They were just starting to eat newly hatched brine shrimp so I took them from the parents and now in a fry saver. Thought it better to save the remaining ones as I suspect the parents had started to eat them. Fry doing well and feeding like pigs, see pic. Hopefully parents can settle down now and have another go with another batch of eggs soon.

[Nathan5]

Good work M8 give it a weak or 2 they will lay again,cute little buggers they are full with brine shrimp

[Merrilyn]

Good luck. It's a tough job raising such young fry. I found that BBS alone didn't give them enough nutrition, and they really need to be fed 6 times a day.

If you want to pursue the artificial rearing, I suggest getting a sheet of stiff black plastic, cut it into a disc shape a bit bigger than a 50 cent coin. You'll need several of them. Then boil a fresh egg till it's hard boiled, and mix a little of the yolk with some cool boiled water and smear it onto the sides of the discs. Allow to dry before suspending the disc in the water, near the fry.

We're trying to imitate the fry feeding from a parent's side here. The extra egg yolk along with newly hatched brine shrimp will give your babies an extra nutrition boost and you should have greater success.

Good luck. Artificial rearing is a lot of work, but very rewarding :)

[Nathan5]

I disagree,the fry are a weak old eating brine shrimp don't bother with egg it will only pollute your water,the point of feeding egg the first days of free swimming is one it's cheap and to get them big enough to eat baby brine shrimp.If you want you can buy a pack of hikari baby brine they have a lot of vitamins and what not added one cube a day along with your live should be more than enough to raise some healthy fry.

[fishomc]

Thanks for the inputs.

I tend to agree with Nathan in regards to raising fry on BBS from say day 4 free swimming. The fry are doing super well, growing very quickly.

I can understand artificially raising discus fry from egg/hatch would be an intensive task, but this is not what I am doing, or intend to do.

I am lucky enough to work in a research technical role, working on commercializing rock lobster larval culture. We hatch approx 1.5tins of BBS cysts per day. So i have ready access to newly hatched BBS daily. One thing with BBS is its nutritionally best in the first few hours post hatch, without some form of enrichment, the nutritional profile drops over time as BBS use energy and begin moulting to new instars. Therefore, one little trick you can do (if you dont have access to newly hatched BBS daily) is to 2 store them in the fridge for a couple of days. This basically slows them right down to the point where they use much less energy and will maintain the higher nutrient profile for longer.

I have raised lots of freshwater ornamental fish fry on BBS and they are very successful.

As with all larval rearing, feed management is key. When feeding live larval feeds like BBS, I like to keep the larvae relatively confined in the early period. This allows a higher feed density when live BBS is added, making it easier for the larvae to find and feed on. They become pink bellied withing a minute of BBS being introduced.

Anyway, i am hoping my pair will become good parents with time and I can leave fry with them for up to 2-3weeks, feeding BBS at the same time. However, in this case, given there were only 10 or so left at day 4 free swimming and were feeding on BBS, it was a good opportunity to "save" these little guys.

The parents did lay again friday, and today are hatching, only about 40-50 will hatch however. Another chance for the parents to learn and gain more experience.

Here is a couple of pics of the fry at day 10 free swimming. Looking great to me.

[Merrilyn]

Good luck with them fisho. I hope they continue to do well. None of us are experts here and our advice is going to differ according to our own experience.

If you've raised a lot of other fry using BBS then you'll find discus fry to be no different. They are simply cichlids and will behave as such.

Your work sounds interesting, and although I probably shouldn't say it, rock lobster lava is really just plankton, and will make a delicious and nutritious follow on food for your discus fry :wink:

[fishomc]

Thanks Merrilyn.

Yep we all have different experiences and ways of doing things in this hobby, its what makes it interesting and challenging.

After another week or so I will start to introduce some other feeds to the fry.

In the interest of keeping my job, I might not feed them lobster larvae (phyllosoma) :wink:

Here they are at day 13 free swimming. They are very friendly now, well and truly associating me with food!

[Merrilyn]

Looking great, keep the photos coming.

[fishomc]

Update. Day 17 free swimming. Quick clip and pic.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7bhSxYQ_BA

[fishomc]

Been a while so time for an update, the pair have been doing really well.

Original batch doing great, putting on size quick. About 40days old now and close to 3cm. Smaller middle batch and lastely a really nice batch of 110+. Quick clips showing each. (they share a tank with some endlers and L134 plecs).



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZV_zLTlBPk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfMjiLG-Ul0

[Merrilyn]

You've done an absolutely brilliant job raising those babies. Congratulations!

What are you feeding the older fry now?

[fishomc]

Thanks Merrilyn, they are close to 50cents coin size now at about 6-7weeks.

They get chopped black worm, live artemia, frozen brine shrimp and high protein (48%) spirulina flake (Ocean nutrition brand).