Biting the bullet - taken eggs away from parents

[Mrs D]

After much frustration, with parents eating eggs and wrigglers, Hubby encouraged me to pull the eggs. I also read in an article "I can kill them just as easily as the parents can!".

2 days ago I pulled the the breeding cone out of the tank and put it into a jug with a mix of methylene blue and tank water. I hung this onto the side of the tank so I could keep the tamp the same and just take my water directly from the tank. Put an airhose into the jug on the opposite side of the eggs to provide aeration. The bulldog clip was to keep the cone from rubbing up against the side of the container and squashing eggs.

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Checked everything yesterday - all but 2 eggs still look nice and dark, can't tell if anything is moving or not as I don't want to disrupt them. Had a discussion with Hubby last night about whether the wrigglers (if they hatched) would be ok in the meth blue mix or if I was supposed to change the water before they hatched. Decided to chang water next morning.

This morning, we pulled the cone and put into new container of tank water. Had to get a torch to get a good look at the eggs to check if they were ok. Oh My Gosh!!! They were moving!!! I had tiny little tails wiggling everywhere.

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Also had 4 babies loose in the bottom of the jug. Very carefully poured just over half the water out and replaced with the new water from the tank. Put the cone back into the jug - had to gently move one of the loose babies out of the way so I didn't squash him - and put back, hanging on the tank again with the airhose in.

Will have to check later today to see how they are going and start getting food ready for tomorrow.
Mrs D :)

[Nev]

God luck!

[Merrilyn]

Brave move Mrs D. You've taken on a mammoth task (now how do I know that :roll: ).

When I tried it, (and I tried it several times) I found the best way was to hang a disc of black hard plastic onto a piece of wire suspended in the middle of the tank, smeared on both sides with an egg yolk and squashed baby brine shrimp mixture, up to 6 times a day.

Biggest problem was keeping the water clean. Boy that stuff pollutes the tank quickly. Had to do an 80% water change after every feeding. Eventually I made life a bit easier by hanging a soft mesh fry trap in small tank, with the growing fry in the trap so I could more easily syphon out the water in the tank without the risk of sucking up any of the babies. Just drop the basket as the water drops, then raise it again as the tank refills.

I kept two baskets in rotation, so one could be sterilized and placed in the sun, while the other was in use. Keep everything as clean as possible, and wipe down the inside of the tank daily with paper towel.

Good luck. It's a lot of work, but the rewards are huge :P

[mistakes r crucial]

A challenge it most certainly is. Give yourself a huge pat on the back when they're out of the woods!

[swampy1972]

If you get even one to adult size I'll certainly award you "Legend status"!!

For someone that was on the verge of giving Discus away a few weeks ago you certainly have come along way. You should be very proud :wink:

[Mrs D]

They're going to drive me to drink!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hooked]

Hi Mrs D,

I've been following your progress. Good for you! I'm very interested to see how this turns out.
After such great efforts.... you deserve at least a drink!

Cheers

[swifto]

Very impressive Mrs D,have one big drink .

[Mr Wild]

Good Luck with it, even I never resorted to this! You get a medal for trying in my books!

[Mrs D]

If I count the day I pulled the eggs as approx Day 2 (guessing eggs laid day before), Day 4 would be wrigglers... and so on.

Day 5 - Friday checked babies and still on side of cone, but lots more tails wriggling, and they were starting to come loose.

Day 6 - Sat checked babies and most were now loose from the cone. Shifted gourami fry into a fry basket and put into community tank, cleaned small tank they were in and set up for discus babies.

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The cone was very carefully lifeted out of the jug (most of the babies dropped into the water) and placed into the ice cream container where it was inspected and any remaining babies washed off with a baster. Remaining babies in jug were also carefully "basted" into the ice cream container.

Babies still clumping and don't seem to be interested in anything but the clump they are hanging onto. Hubby and I wondered if they were eating old egg cases? We left them there to settle and just watched them (lol, about every 5-10 min).

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Tried feeding in the evening, using a mix of spirulina powder, egg yolk and gelatin to bind it, smeared onto black plastic feeder - AKA, cut up the base of a take away food container, making sure to round the edges and Hubby put a hole in the top so it could be hung from a piece of bamboo plant stake.

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Left food there for approx 30 min, then changed babies to another square container containing fresh water.

Note: All of the water to fill the fry tank and the water in their container has come from the parents tank. This was easier for me as it was already set up, they came from there in the first place, and I know temp and water parameters wont change with every water change.

Day 7 - Sun. Lifted lid to look at babies and saw what looked like a hundred free swimmers zooming around the container! Fed again.

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This is a really bad pic, but hopefully you can see the fry on the right side of the line of food feeding.

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I had set up baby brine shrimp eggs last night, but I think I forgot to add dechlorinator to the water - Hubby picked that one up and gee I felt dumb! You think I would know that. Duh...

Cleaned water after feed and put in a tiny amount of frozen bbs, just in case they would go for it.

Another feed.......

Here is a pick of my lovely little free swimmers from tonight.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/MrsDragon_2006/IMGP7651.jpg

P.S. Thanks for all the support and advice. Bummer for the drinks tho, I don't drink. :( Have had a lot of chocolate lately :)

[Mr Wild]

Great so far, keep up the good work!

[Mrs D]

Thanks. :)

[Nev]

Just buy the bbs frozen from your lfs its heaps easier, and the fry seem to like it.

[swampy1972]

That's absolutely amazing Mrs D!! Great pics and such a great effort from both yourself and Mr D :lol:

[iro11a]

Loving the way its progressing.will be nice to see them growing up.

[Mrs D]

Still feeding. Just using a mix of egg yolk and frozen bbs now. Hair dryer is a fantastic way of drying them quick! :)

Also forgot to say that lovely parents laid more eggs and, although numbers have dropped, the eggs are wiggling. Don't know if they will survive.

[swampy1972]

When it rains, it pours!! :lol:

[Wendy]

Well done Mrs D and thanks for all the pics, its great to watch whats happening!

[Mrs D]

Thanks guys. Trying to do this as a bit of a photo journal for myself as well, and if it helps someone else, great.

[Merrilyn]

Well done Mrs D. :P

The only suggestion I'd make is to drop the black plastic disc lower into the water so the fry have a larger surface area to feed from.

So far, so good. Fingers crossed for you.

[Mrs D]

Day 9 now. Have one or two losses a day, not sure if these are weaker ones that would have died anyway or if there is something we are/are not doing for this to happen.

Have placed feeding discs lower and spread the food more to cover a larger area. Also put 2 discs in tonight as they seemed really frantic to feed.

My lovely pair (mum & dad) in the garage now have wrigglers that look like they want to start moving about - got a bit of a surprise tonight, mum & dad moved them all to the other end of the tank (where I always take the water for the fry from) and put them on the cone I had put back into the tank.

They seem to be doing a lot better with their fry in tank this time. Two theories:
1. I took their babies and they thought I was telling them to smarten up or I would always take their babies, therefore being better parents now.
2. I stopped tiptoing around their tank and stopped being nice. Desensitising them? I was literally dumping a bucket of water into their tank to replace the water taken for the fry tank, instead of very carefully pouring it in. I did make sure that the wated dumped down a length of pvc pipe they were ignoring and was at the opposite end of the tank to where they swam. Mind you, they decided to lay on the very pvc I dumped the water on!

[Mrs D]

Also, forgot to add that Hubby is a numbers man, so while I was at work and he was looking after " the kids", he transferred them all, one by one with a dropper, when he did the water change after feedong. In his exact words "199, plu or minus 3"

Apart from rolling on the floor due to the mental image of my Non-Fishy Hubby very carefully counting all "our babies", How the hell did I end up with that many when it didn't look like that many eggs. Have a look at the early pics of the fry starting to come out of the eggs and please explain. Does anyone else find this happening with their egg to fry ratio?

[Mrs D]

OOoooooo. Just found out I can't type h e l l , it get's star treatment. for those who thought I was saying something really bad. :)

[Merrilyn]

That is absolutely fantastic!!!!!

The loss of one or two a day is perfectly normal. That's why fish have such big spawns, to allow for the loss of the weaker ones. As far as a pair is concerned, if they raise even two babies out of 300 it has been a successful spawn.

Please keep taking photos; and if you can manage it, if you'd like to write up a journal of your experience with artificial raising of fry, I'd be delighted to add it to the stickies at the top of the forum, so it can serve as a guide to others who may be tempted to try this.

[iro11a]

Thats a good batch to have 100 plus.They seem like they got their act together.

Pictures of parents would be nice :)

[Hooked]

Hi guys,

Hows it all going? Have you had some good growth over the last week?

I hope its all going well for you,

Cheers

[Mrs D]

Sorry for the delay in updating. Short version - all fry dead and got rid of all my discus bar 2 that no one seems to want.

Longer version -
Kept doing the feeds and water changes, but fry mortality rates started going up. I'm not sure if I wasn't feeding enough, too much or what, but started having 10-15 dead fry, then went up to 25. Out of desperation I put them into a small quarantine tank with the female (she was always the most diligent) in the hopes that they would feed off her and I would have a couple survive.

I did see some of the fry feeding off the female. Occasionally she would suck one into her mouth then spit it back out. was worried when it first happened in case she was snacking but as she spat them out wasn't too concerned. By the next morning they were all gone - hmmm, should have been more concerned, or did they just die or get lost?

The fry the pair had in the breeding tank (where this female came from) also disappeared. Not sure if eaten or lost.

I have admitted defeat with discus. Can't stand to watch such a beautiful fish die, either through the disease misfortune I had, or losing babies. :(

[Hooked]

Hi Mrs D,
A+ for effort! I'm sorry to hear after so much effort that this was the outcome. It doesn't seem fair. I for one got a lot out of following your thread so thanks for that. I wish you all the best in the future,

Cheers

[phil56]

Hi Mrs D,
Sorry to hear about your failure raising the young discus, I too lost many spawns before I got it right, I noticed you made quite a few fundamental mistakes through inexperience that I hope I can help you with and renew your interest in discus.

If you make a few changes to your growing out tank I'm sure you'll be successful. The biggest problem with baby discus is their inability to survive in anything but pristine water and they have almost no tolerance of ammonia, You can use the same white ice-cream container, but cut some large holes in the side and cover them with 200 micron micro-mesh, glue on with silicone. Put a small pump in the tank and run it very slowly through a 35watt uv sterilizer, and drip feed into the ice-cream container, this will keep your bacteria count low and eliminate most bacterial infections.

Keep the PH between 5.5 and 6 this will pretty much solve problems with ammonia. Change most of the water in the tank after every feeding, with water from the parents tank.

Feeding: I can't help but notice you put in way too much food, that would very quickly pollute the water and kill the fry, instead of black plastic you can use those plastic coloured air stones, I don't know why perhaps the colours but newly hatched discus are very much attracted to it. Smear the air stone with a mixture of powdered egg yolk (you can buy that in coles) newly hatched brine shrimp and spirulina powder. Mix in a small bowl with your finger so you can crush the liquid from the brine shrimp into the mix. Without spirulina powder the young discus gorge themselves and usually die, the spirulina seems to help with bowel movement. Attach the air stone to some air line for placement and removal (remember only smear the air stone this will feed 200 young) You can pump a small amount of air through the stone, say one bubble every 1 or 2 seconds. Feed about 3 times a day and siphon out any of the mix that falls off the air stone.

Make sure you have a good filtration system going and clean regularly as nothing is more pollutive than egg yolk. Growth rate is comparable to young fed on parental slime, deformities only occur if you've been a bit slack on water quality. I have raised several thousand discus using large filter systems and 50 or so ice-cream containers so I can assure you this system works. It takes time to get everything right so don't be too disappointed if the first several attempts are unsuccessful if you just stick with it you gain that necessary experience each time and before you know it you'll raise spawns without a single loss.

All the best