Black Discus with white opaque eyes

[micromike]

Hello everyone,
I'm new to this forum, and have joined to get some advice from people that know what they are talking about. I have talked to aquarium shops and keep getting conflicting advice as to what to do.
I'll give some history first and then explain the problem. I have had my tank for 6 months, and the fish for about 4 months. The tank is 90 litres. I have two Discus and and 6 neons in the tank plus a gravel bottom, large piece of driftwood and plants.
The water parameters are as follows: GH 60, KH 40, pH 6.0, NO2 0, NO3 somewhere between 0 and 20, Ammonia 0. I am using the API 5 in 1 test strips plus the API wet ammonia test. I feed the fish twice a day giving them frozen blood worms and frozen discus block. Usually about a quarter of block per fish per feed,

I have been changing 20 - 30 percent of the water weekly since setting the tank up. I have been using only tap water to which I have been adding Aquasafe plus, Seachem Discus buffer and blackwater extract. Adelaide water is VERY hard full of chloramines and has a pH of 7.5 - 8. I was adding a small teaspoon of Discus buffer per bucket which dropped the pH to 6 - 6.5. I also made sure the water was about the same temp as the tank to avoid shock.
OK, up until a week ago everything was fine, fish always at the front of the tank following you as you walk by, feeding happily, and eating quickly, I have never needed to remove uneaten food.
Now one discus keeps turning almost black and appears to have a white opaque "growth" on both eyes, one side worse than the other. The "growth" on the worse side seems quite raised, the opacity seems extenal to the eye rather than internal to the eye. The fish seems to change colour even as you watch, appearing quite normal (which is brown/orange with vertical black stress bars) and suddenly turning alsmost completely black. Up until yesterday it was still feeding but nowhere near as vigorously as usual.
I phoned the shop where I bought the fish and was told I was changing the water too much (which goes against everything I have read!) and I should only be changing 10% per week not 20 - 30%. On his advice I changed 10% of the water using rainwater (which I tested for NO2 & NO3 prior to adding to the tank) plus I added Seachem PRIME to the tank and water.
After 2 days this appeared to make no difference. I rang another aquarium shop in adelaide and was told to add Malafix which I have now done. This also (after 24 hours) seems to have made things worse not better with the fish now hiding low in the tank and not at the front looking for food.
I am hoping that with all of your combined knowledge I can be pointed in the right direction. I adhere to the KISS principle and don't want to start changing everything at once and stuffing it up completely!!
Thanks in advance for any help.

[Exotic Aquatic]

i will leave it to someone like ILLUSN to help you, however i can tell you that you are changing insufficent water.

FOr example in my tank i do 40-70%3-4 times a week!

Hope someone can halp you soon.

All the best,
Adrian.

[ILLUSN]

OK Melafix is uselss for discus, all it does is aggrivate the slimecoat, its great for all other fish but something about discus physiology is in compatible with it.

if you have access to rain water all the better, get some in a nice big bin and heat it, also add a full dose of aquaplus (i assume its the one your using made by hagen with alovera in it?).

Do a nice big water change at least 50% and really vac your gravel, you want to get the NO3 down ideally you want somwhere around 0-10 (though 0-5 is better).

set your temp at 30C, the white eyes and black color is classic bacterial infection.

treatments that work well are
myaxin by water life (be carefull with your tetras)
tripple sulfa tablets (1 tablet 40L)
teracycline my work buts become a little hit and miss in recent years.

Basicly think of your NO3 as a measure of how clean your water is the higher it gets the more NO3, it also means the more watse and other componds are in your water, as water becomes "dirty" it becomes a "microbial broth" any stress on your fish leads to infection. Best advice i can give is a big water change every day or 2 untill your NO3 is below 10. Once below 10 start treatment for the bacterial infection, no point in treating in a dirty tank make sure its clean before you start to maximise your chance of sucess.

You'll have to adjust your water changes to keep your NO3 at 0-10 it may mean 30% twice a week, or 20% daily or 50% 3x a week you wont know till you start measuring it yourself.

[micromike]

Thanks for the replies,
I will do an immediate water change and vacuum the tank when I get home from work. I will endevour to get the NO3 levels down. I will update tomorrow.

Many thanks

Michael

[micromike]

Have now done 50% water change and removed all plants so I could vacuum the gravel well. topped up tank with half rainwater and half treated tapwater. All water parameters look good with ammonia, nitrate and nitrite all at zero. I am sourcing antibiotics today so treatment can begin ASAP.

Michael

[boxters]

what filtration are you using? How big are your discus?

[micromike]

The filtration is an internal sponge filter system, The larger of the two Discus is 10-12cm tip to tail and the smaller one is 6 - 7cm.

[ILLUSN]

GOOD START!
if the nitrate is still low in the morning you can start treatment depending on how aggresive you want to be you could start with either myaxin (DO NOT OVER DOSE AS TETRAS ARE SENSITIVE TO IT) or tripple slufa, metro would also work as it targets a variety of bacteria not just flagellets but again you'll need a perscription.

[micromike]

Thanks ILLUSN, will check tonight - fingers crossed!
It's been an interesting journey finding the right advice and treatment.
As a Microbiologist it seems that there is a lot of folklore in the fish treatment world and not alot of science. In previous lives I've worked in Pathology/Veterinary labs where you identify the organism and treat with the appropriate antibiotic. Is there information as to what organisms are responsible for the various diseases? I'm sure that there would be more than one, but even if they could be broken down into Gram negative or Gram positive (sorry micro talk) it would certainly make antibiotic choice easier.
I would imagine that a lot of aquatic infections would be caused by Gram negative bacteria as these are what you find in the environment/water/faecal matter but a lot of the treatments, like tetacycline, would be inappropriate for this group. Sorry if I have wondered off topic! Maybe there is thread on this?

Cheers

Michael

[ILLUSN]

most infections are caused by gram negative anerobes (i worked in the Center for infectious disease microbiology).

you need to remember your basic microbial anatomy, most gram positive antibiotics target peptidoglycan which forms the outer shell of gram positive bacteria, gram negatives also have a layer of peptidoglycan just under their surface, the same antibioics work on these species by stoping (or at least slowing) their abilty to reproduce. you need to maintain clean water to give the fish the most chance to allow its immune system to take advantage of the slowdown of the bacteria, also in "dirty water" the number of targets for the drugs to work is greatly increased further reducing the effectiveness.

unfortunately most target specific drugs are not available for FISH use, your best bet are the broad spectrum "old world" drugs, sulfa, formadehyde, malachite green, meth blue. tetracycline is suprising allowed for animal use without perscription. other proven effective antibiotcs are kanamycin, archiflavin, metronidazole, erethromyacin but unless you have free access to a sympatheic GP, or a government lab your chances of getteing these (and knowing how to use them resposibly) are slim

[micromike]

Have started treatment with Tetracycline - fish now looking very sick, in the corner of the tank barely moving. Fins looking ragged and slime coat looks like it's "peeling off"
From what I have read this looks like a Flexibacter infection, really do't know if I will be able to save these guys. Will see what the morning brings.

[ILLUSN]

that sucks like i said tetracycline can be hit and miss. slime coat pealing is in responce to an irritant (likely the drug) can you do a quick ph check the fin damage could be a burn from a ph change. flexibacter sounds right though with out a swab and gram stain you'll never know.

[micromike]

My wife is a microbiologist also and is in fact working today. I have swabs here at home so will try to get a sample and get her to do a wet mount and Gram stain. Have also been looking into media for culture, have come up with Shieh Medium so may try to knock some up and culture. It may be too late now treatment has begun. I would like to be using something else for treatment but tertacycline was all I could get locally. I'm seeing a need here for diagnisis and treatment options!
It seems in th USA they have access to wider range of tretment options which we can't get here unless supplied by a vet.
Fish are moving around a bit more this morning but still looking awful, larger of pair has some white growth on the gill covers now.

Should I change some water before I retreat with the tetracycline?

Michael

[ILLUSN]

you shouldn't need to retreat with tetracycline a once off dose is ment to do the trick if possible leave it in untill tonight then do a nice big water change, as much as you can manage and then wait and see also please keep a close eye on your ammonia I'm not sure how well your sponge bounce back from the tertacycline.

culturing fish pathogens is almost imposible, you'll need an incubater that sits at 28C i used carbon yeast extract media that we used for legonella growth (my theory was it also like ths same type of conditions to a fish tank) it worked ok

[micromike]

At present all parameters are normal - will keep checking!

[boxters]

if it were me, i would do a 100% water change. reduce ph down gradually over 4 or 5 days to about 5 and add a bit of salt to the tank. Leave light off and cover tank with a sheet leaving just one end open.crank temp up to 30-32. Leave them be. No food just lots of clean water.

[micromike]

Both fish now dead. Large one died first, was not pleasant to watch, fish spasmed wildly for about 30 seconds then crashed to the bottom never to move again. After removal fo the dead fish I did a 50% water change and retreated with tet. Small fish went through the same death throws about 6 hours later.

Will now sterilise tank and contents and give it to my 10 year old for her goldfish!

Thanks for your help.

Michael

[micromike]

Just a foot note: when my wife did a wet mount & Gram stain she saw large long rods which could have been Flexibacter, but there were also lots of small highly motile rods which I guess could have been Aeromonas or Pseudo. My feeling is that the tet was just not acting quickly enough to bring down the bacterial count. When added to the tank most of the tet settle out and sat on the bottom. I even crushed it up in a mortar and pestle and mixed it with a bucket of water first. My feeling is that to have been effective I would probably have needed a couple of antibiotics to hit the bugs hard and fast.

Michael

[Exotic Aquatic]

sorry to hear about your bad experience, even someone as well equipped as you had to suffer a loss.
Rest assured you had the best advice possible with ILLUSN, and your own knowledge base is very impressive to say the least!

If you ever get back on the horse let me know, ill see what i can do to help mate.

I hope your not too disheartened.

Wishing you well,
Adrian.

[micromike]

Thanks Adrian,
I really appreciate your comments.
My wife I grew quite attached to those fish. Seems strange, but to watch them slowly die in front of us was quite disturbing.
If it was our cat or dog you could rush them to the vet and get help (we did ring our vet who said ring a pet shop!), but with the fish we felt so helpless. At least with this forum we had people to help us. It seemed so ironic that fish belonging to two microbiologists should die of a bacterial infection!
I have a bad taste in my mouth at the moment I feel I let them down, hopefully next time we will do it bigger and better.
Once again, thanks to all.

Michael

[Exotic Aquatic]

heartbreaking!!!

Sorry to hear it Mike.

I feel for you buddy, hope your next attempt in the future is fruitful and reqrding for you both!

Kindest Regards,
Adrian.