Juvenile discus not growing, doesnt seem to eat

[Ghoti]

Hi Folks,

I purchased 5 juvenile discus which used to shares a 6 foot community tank with 6 matyre discus. 4 of the discus seem to have grown well, but one has not grown at all and now is about half the size of his mates.

I figure he must be eating, not that I have seen it. I have tried flakes, pellets, bloodworm and beefheart.

He doesnt hang with the pack, he is always on his own. While his mates have the odd blue, they dont seem to pick on him, but he keeps away.

About 5 weeks back I started up a 4 foot tank for the 5 juvenile discus, but he still hangs by himself and is getting quite skinny and his "belly" seems to be flattening out.

I am quite concerned amnd tonight was thing about statrting up a 30L tank I have to separate him or moving the other 4 back to the 6 footer.

They say its not good to keep them by themselves, but he doesnt seem to be doing at all well in company.

Ideas, thoughts, suggestions???

Cheers,
Scott

[Mr Wild]

It seems there is always a runt of the pack but this sounds like it has gotten more serious. I would QT him in a small tank, turn the heat up to 30-32 to try and get him eating, you will have to get live food to get his interest.

If he is not sick hopefully this will work for you. Watch his poo for anything unusual as they become very susceptable to anything when their condition is poor. If you notice anything other than dark poo better get back here with some more details.

50% wc everyday for this little fellow, make sure the water is preheated and treated as well.

Good Luck.

[Ghoti]

Thanks Kath. I set up the 30L tank last night using water from his tank and treated it with Seachem Stability to kick start the cycle. I also put some filer wool in my trickle filter.

Will give the tank 24 hours to settle in then transfer him across.

I take it I wait for him to put on some size before returning him to the group, or do I just wait for him to be as greedy as his mates when feeding?

Cheers,
Scott

[Mr Wild]

If it were me I would wait for weight gain to be evident before I replaced him. Then on the day I would do a good sized wc on the bigger tank where he is going, I would clean all surfaces down and completely rearrange the furniture, this will put the others off and any territories will be changed that may put him at a better advantage at least initially to help him settle in as he will not be the only one upset by the change.

I have done this and it works quite well but you still will have to watch out for him and make sure he gets some dinner. HTH

[Ghoti]

Thanks again Kath.

Cheers,
Scott

[Hollowman]

I wouldnt bother trying to cycle the tank, with the big daily water changes you will be giving it the best conditions you can with that. Maybe try to use a mature sponge filter in there if you have one. Otherwise you will be wasting money.

[Ghoti]

Oh well. . . .I already dosed it up.

My rainwater tank water is ph 6.0, GH 0-1, KH 0-1, 0.25ppm Amonia, O nitrIte, 0 nitrAte.

The tank he is in has the water from his previous home at ph 7.0, GH 6, KH 4.0, 0 Amonia, O nitrIte, 20ppm nitrAte.

I am guessing he's best off being "converted" to untreated tank water leaving it to the filter to deal with the slight Ammonia rather than dosing up every day to achieve different numbers. Is this correct?

I have a 200lt holding drum which I usually dose the water in before doing changes on the other tanks which I could use to pretreat if required.

EDIT: I forgot to say I have already transferred him and offered frozen beefheart, bloodworm and flake to no avail. I have removed the beefheart and left hom with the flake and some bloodworm in the hope he might snack overnight.

Cheers,
Scott

[Mr Wild]

Treat your 200 litre and heat it and use it for your daily changes.

Do not leave food in overnight, they are not catfish and do not feed through the night it will only foul the water.

get live food either bbs or blackworms your lfs should have some of these and get the temp up, Once you have treated your water put enough for the wc in a bucket to get the temp up - it will be wasteful to heat 200litres to 32C ans only use 15 litres at a time!

[Ghoti]

Well, so far no real change to report.

He's in the 30L tank with only a little water srite for company, which he continues to hide in.

I was unable to get BBS or Bloodworn, but did get some "normal" brine shrimp which I have tried. He doesn't eat them, he actually runs away from them.

None of the LFS I tried had brine shrimp eggs either, so I ordered some online - hopefully they arrive today. I have made up a DIY hatchery, so hopefully over the weekend I'll end up with an almost endless supply of BBS.

On a positive note his colour seems to have improved, though I'd rather he start eating and put on some weight. He is terribly skinny (anorexic) at present.

Another thought - the pH is 7.0, the same as the tank he came from. Straight from the (rainwater tank) tap the ph is 6, gh 0, kh 0 though I boost KH to 4 (gh to 10) which results in a pH of 7. Would it be worthwhile dropping the KH to achieve a pH around 6.5?

Cheers,
Scott

[Mr Wild]

I wouldn't touch the PH it is better it is stable at 7. You are not getting a breeding tank ready so don't worry.

Have you seen him poop yet - anything?

[BigDaddyAdo]

Monitor the water conditions in the 30L very closely. It wont take much to end up with very poor water quality, an ammonia spike, etc in such a small tank.

[Ghoti]

Have you seen him poop yet - anything?

Not seen anything go in or out. Only thing on bottom of tank is dead brine shrimp waiting for me to do tonights water change.

Cheers,
Scott

[Mr Wild]

OK get some frech garlic and crush it, use the juice and soak some food with it you might need to add a little water as well but you get the idea, did you get the tank temp up to 30/32?
Still doing 50% wc each day?

[Ghoti]

OK get some frech garlic and crush it, use the juice and soak some food with it you might need to add a little water as well but you get the idea, did you get the tank temp up to 30/32?
Still doing 50% wc each day?

Tank is at a steady 32 with a 100w heater (30L tank) sitting on top of my other tank (which is at 29C). Doing measured 50% WC daily. Take water from an aging barrel containing water at ph7, gh 10, kh 4, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0. Water is heated to 32c (with the other 100w heater I have) during the day and the wc is performed around 7:00pm.

I have some beefheart mix full of garlic I could try or otherwise could try soaking flake and pellets with garlic juice. Mind yiu he didnt take the beefheart mix on the first day in his solitary tank.

Cheers,
Scott

[Mr Wild]

Hi Scott

Well that all sounds perfect, garlic will help induce him to eat so I would try a little of both.

Is he looking so thin you might lose him? I ask because normally I wouldn't just want to dump meds into the tank but if it looks touch and go it might be worth a try.

How many days has he gone without eating now?

Kath

[finito]

Hi Scott
just a thought the issue appears to be he is having an issue in his gutts.
if this is the case he will refuse to eat meat or fish base food.

what i would do in this instance is get two nice leaves of baby spinach
or young sweet potatoe leaves and chop it to very small pieces smaller the better (approx half the size of a tetra bit) and drop into the tank.

Aslo the leaves will not spoil the water in QT tank.

if you see him swallowing those tiny pieces of leaves in couple of days he will start eating.

Also the leaves are good for healthy fishes too.

Cheers
Tony

[Ghoti]

what i would do in this instance is get two nice leaves of baby spinach or young sweet potatoe leaves and chop it to very small pieces smaller the better (approx half the size of a tetra bit) and drop into the tank.


Gotta be worth a try thanks Tony. So far I have tried beefheart, flake, pellets, frozen bloodworm, live brine shrimp, frozen BBS, frozen bbs & flake with garlic. Have set up a BBS hatchery, just waiting for eggs to come. Will get some baby spinach tomorrow and try tomorrow night. (By the way Tony, the fish I got from yoiu are doing fine in another tank).


Is he looking so thin you might lose him? I ask because normally I wouldn't just want to dump meds into the tank but if it looks touch and go it might be worth a try.

To be honest Kath, he's that thin I'm surprised he's not already gone. Today I have been thinking it might be best to put a humane end to his suffering - he is very skinny and for the last two days just hangs around the top of the heater. Only thing I've seen on the bottom of the tank is the food I have put in....pictures below.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa142/ghotipics2/DSCF4389.jpg

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa142/ghotipics2/DSCF4390.jpg




Cheers,
Scott

[Hollowman]

Humanely cull it NOW

You should have seen this going downhill months ago

[lpiasente]

Yep sorry this poor little fellow needs to be put to sleep he is far to gone for help. :(

[Mr Wild]

Sorry Scott, trying to pull him out of this is hopeless. I am afraid it is a cull job.
When they get this thin there is very little you can do to get them back eating again. I commend you for trying but it really should have been started weeks and weeks ago.

Sorry for your loss.

[Ghoti]

For what its worth, as stated in the first post of the thread, there has been a number of things tried before this post. Unfortunately some seem reluctant to advise but quick to condemn.

Kath, thanks for your support in this closing chapter. And to those that advised over the last coupole of months, thanks also for your efforts.

And to Hollowman - seems the choice of handle is quite apt!

Cheers,
Scott

[swampy1972]

Hi Scott,

Sorry to hear about this little guy, I've been off line for a while.

I know it sux to lose one, especially after putting in as much effort as you have trying to save it. For what it's worth mate, try using this experience for future reference should you see it again.

We've all lost at least one fish, (those that say that haven't are full of it) so we know your pain. Keep at it mate and I hope the rest are doing well.

Swampy ;)

[Mr Wild]

Scott

No need for thanks, it was my pleasure to try and help a fellow hobbyist.

[Hollowman]

And to Hollowman - seems the choice of handle is quite apt!

Cheers,
Scott

You're welcome, I love to tell the truth. But I am never rude. I advised you quite early in the thread but you chose to ignore my suggestion.

I guess we are friends now right :roll:

[lpiasente]

sorry for the little guy.

[Merrilyn]

Just found this thread.

So sorry about your little guy.

Sometimes we just can't save them, no matter how hard we try.

A fish that refuses to eat is always bad news, and the longer they go without eating, the harder it is to get them to restart.

Hope your other fish are still doing well. :P

[Decapper]

After bringing my little fish back from the death I find it bad advice for ppl to ride off little skinny fish like this.

If the buggers wanted to die they would stop breathing. Reminds me of a mate and he's family where going to turn off the life machine and he woke up a day before they where going to do it!

[Hollowman]

After bringing my little fish back from the death I find it bad advice for ppl to ride off little skinny fish like this.

If the buggers wanted to die they would stop breathing. Reminds me of a mate and he's family where going to turn off the life machine and he woke up a day before they where going to do it!

Granted, a cautionary tale.

BUT ....... Even your fish is far from being out of the woods. A skinny fish is far from being a recovered fish. It will also be inherently and severely stunted for life. It will now always be the runt 'if' it survives. Fish of this nature will eventually die early because of the damage done either by the condition it got into or the meds it had to withstand.

For me, I hate to see an animal suffering. If my cats were ill, I would love them enough to stop their suffering, if you know how to put a fish to sleep properly, then you know yo are doing the right thing. I also make choices like this when culling a batch of fry, it is not easy, but to promote a better and stronger gene pool, you have to select only the best.