Five emergency steps when in trouble

[aequifasciatus]

After having every known pathogen and water problem known to discus culture over many years, I have the best five steps to take as urgent action if you believe all is not well in your tank(s).

They are as follows:

1. DO A WATER CHANGE

2. DO A WATER CHANGE

3. DO A WATER CHANGE

4. DO A WATER CHANGE

5. DO A WATER CHANGE

This is always the first thing an experienced discus keeper/breeder will do.

When you ask for help don't just say "my water's OK" We need to know the parameters of your water i.e. temperature, pH, NO2, NO3, kH and any additives you have in your water.

You don't go to a doctor and say "I'm sick Doc...fix me". You will have symptoms that he/she needs to know about before suggesting a remedy.

Hope this helps

Aequifasciatus

[Greggy]

Generally thats good advice, however there is one exception - if someone has a tank with a stable pH below 7 (acidic) and they get an ammonia spike due to a failed filter or accidental over feeding etc, doing a water change might actually do more harm than good, as it could raise pH above neutral and turn the relatively harmless ammonium ions into very harmful ammonia.

Of course if that should occur, the best advice is to do several water changes!

[swampy1972]

I'd think that would only be the case if the new water was at a higher Ph. Most keepers go to great lengths to ensure the new water enters the tank at the same parameters in order to maintain their stable water column.

[Love Discus]

Generally thats good advice, however there is one exception - if someone has a tank with a stable pH below 7 (acidic) and they get an ammonia spike due to a failed filter or accidental over feeding etc, doing a water change might actually do more harm than good, as it could raise pH above neutral and turn the relatively harmless ammonium ions into very harmful ammonia.

Of course if that should occur, the best advice is to do several water changes!
amonia is harmful period. no matter ph levels. just dont believe everything you read okay greggy.

edit: you should test this theory which niether you or i developed...
The next time you find a tank to have a ph of 6.9 and no amonia, pis in it and see if that amonia is harmless or not.

[Greggy]

Yes, ammonia is harmful. We all know that. I never said it wasn't.

You obviously failed (in addition to being able to spell) to understand the relationship that pH plays in the toxicity of ammonia.

Consider this quote from Tom at Wet Web Media...

<<"Free" ammonia, chemically, is NH3. "Total" ammonia is a combination of ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4+). (Ammonium is non-toxic to fish.) The two naturally exist in a type of equilibrium depending on pH and temperature - with temperature playing the smaller role here. The lower the pH and temperature, the greater the concentration of ammonium. As pH and temperature rise, ammonia has the greater presence. Your Aquarium Pharmaceutical test kit - which is the kit I, personally, use - tests for "total" ammonia. However, due to the low pH of your tank water, at the time of your first test, I would calculate that the "free" ammonia (the bad stuff) in your tank was <0.01 ppm, assuming a tank temperature of around 79 degrees F. In short, you didn't have an emergency or, at the very least, your Raphael catfish didn't expire due to ammonia/nitrite poisoning. Now, could this have quickly, and fatally, reversed itself? Oh, you betcha! A sudden increase in pH would have converted the ammonium to ammonia and you probably could have used your aquarium water as a household cleaner. Well, not that bad but you get the picture.>>
Source: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/fwammfaqs.htm

There are also many reputable articles that demonstrate the relationship between pH with ammonia & ammonium, here are just two I found within moments of searching the Internet...

http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/AmmoniaTox.html
http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Articles/TonyGriffitts/Ammonia.htm

I'm not saying water changes are a bad thing if you have an ammonia spike, however if there is any risk that the water change might increase the pH of a stable (low-pH) system then one must be careful so as not to cause more harm than good.

Also, this forum is not the place for making comments such as urinating into an aquarium - please keep your suggestions positive and constructive, and remember the audience.

Greggy

[swampy1972]

amonia is harmful period. no matter ph levels. just dont believe everything you read okay greggy.

edit: you should test this theory which niether you or i developed...
The next time you find a tank to have a ph of 6.9 and no amonia, pis in it and see if that amonia is harmless or not.[/quote]

Sounds like you have some reading to do before you start p***ing in your tank :D

http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/ammonia-toxicity.html

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/nutrient/nitcyc.shtml

[BigDaddyAdo]

I say let him go ahead and pee in his tank. ;)

[mitsui]

ewwwwww :shock: :lol: :lol:

[swampy1972]

I say let him go ahead and pee in his tank. ;)

Would that make those fish P*ss heads?! :D

Sorry, "dad joke".. :roll:

[BigDaddyAdo]

It will really bring out the yellows in the fish.

[Love Discus]

do it greggy do it! put your stolen theory to the test!

[Love Discus]

Yes, ammonia is harmful. We all know that. I never said it wasn't.

You obviously failed (in addition to being able to spell) to understand the relationship that pH plays in the toxicity of ammonia.

Consider this quote from Tom at Wet Web Media...

<<"Free" ammonia, chemically, is NH3. "Total" ammonia is a combination of ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4+). (Ammonium is non-toxic to fish.) The two naturally exist in a type of equilibrium depending on pH and temperature - with temperature playing the smaller role here. The lower the pH and temperature, the greater the concentration of ammonium. As pH and temperature rise, ammonia has the greater presence. Your Aquarium Pharmaceutical test kit - which is the kit I, personally, use - tests for "total" ammonia. However, due to the low pH of your tank water, at the time of your first test, I would calculate that the "free" ammonia (the bad stuff) in your tank was <0.01 ppm, assuming a tank temperature of around 79 degrees F. In short, you didn't have an emergency or, at the very least, your Raphael catfish didn't expire due to ammonia/nitrite poisoning. Now, could this have quickly, and fatally, reversed itself? Oh, you betcha! A sudden increase in pH would have converted the ammonium to ammonia and you probably could have used your aquarium water as a household cleaner. Well, not that bad but you get the picture.>>
Source: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/fwammfaqs.htm

There are also many reputable articles that demonstrate the relationship between pH with ammonia & ammonium, here are just two I found within moments of searching the Internet...

http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/AmmoniaTox.html
http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Articles/TonyGriffitts/Ammonia.htm

I'm not saying water changes are a bad thing if you have an ammonia spike, however if there is any risk that the water change might increase the pH of a stable (low-pH) system then one must be careful so as not to cause more harm than good.

Also, this forum is not the place for making comments such as urinating into an aquarium - please keep your suggestions positive and constructive, and remember the audience.

Greggy
my spelling is fine, you understood what I said right? and I also know how to copy and paste.

okay im done with this thread. smartass vs smartass is not often a good thing.

[Hollowman]

my spelling is fine, you understood what I said right? and I also know how to copy and paste.

okay im done with this thread. smartass vs smartass is not often a good thing.

But are you not the 10year experienced fish keeper who is having problems because you failed to cycle your tank properly ?? :shock: :roll:

[BigDaddyAdo]

I believe it's 10yrs+ Steve.

I like smartass vs smartass threads. They are my favourites. ;)

[boxters]

Working very closely with a fish vet for several years I can comfortably say that ammonia is toxic to fish and ammonium less toxic, but less still means toxic. In stud dies conducted over several months, fish exposed to moderate levels of ammonium became stunted and after prolonged exposure internal organs started to shut down. This is why we cycle our tanks and why toxins can't be flushed into our water ways

[Hollowman]

I believe it's 10yrs+ Steve.

I like smartass vs smartass threads. They are my favourites. ;)

Mine too Ado, :lol: Me also smarty arse :roll:

[Love Discus]

my spelling is fine, you understood what I said right? and I also know how to copy and paste.

okay im done with this thread. smartass vs smartass is not often a good thing.

But are you not the 10year experienced fish keeper who is having problems because you failed to cycle your tank properly ?? :shock: :roll:
yah thats me. 8-) I am not the only one, and I am far from an expert. I also had no Idea how much amonia discus produce. it just amazes me. It seems to me that a 3 inch discus produces as much amonia as a 6in piranha. yeap Ive screwed up, and im glad to see most folks on this forum are pretty forgiving, I try to think I am too.