Urgent. Serious White Spot, Plague or Chemical OD?

[Old Dave]

I have a had an outbreak of white spot over the last week or so.
Caused by new (quarantined) addition to the tank.
450l tank incl sump. pH 6.8. temp 28C. Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates <10.
Tank has 9 discus, 2"-5", 3x rams (culprit) 1 clown loach & 1 GS pleco.
BB with plants on logs.

I'll go through a list of my treatments.

Day 1 75ml (75% strength due to loach) of recommended dose of Aqua Master Rapid White Spot Remedy. Lights off.
Day 2 25% WS Remedy.
Day 4 6x TBLSPN of Salt. Temp to 30C.
6 hrs later 3x TBLSPN of salt.
Day 5 Fish really stressed. Top of tank. 30% wc. 75 ml WS Remedy.
Day 6 25ml WS Remedy. Fish really stressed. 30% wc.
Temp to 32C 3TBLSPN salt added
Day 7 No action. Symptoms worsening on most fish.
One lovely White diamond lost in the process. :(

While I can see a few flaws in my method I need your help to save those left.
The pics are understatements.

Thanks

Old Dave

[ILLUSN]

I dont see spots on those fish usually you see it on the fins and tail.
It looks more like a bacterial infection or irritant affecting the skin.
id s the new fish sick? if not and only the other are you might have a mild case of plague ther new fish could be a carrier

if it is white spot treat as follows

DO A BIG WATER CHANGE

bump temp up again to 31 even 32 if you can

add salt 1tsp/20L

start treatment with protozin by water life treat at 2x the bottle dose (kiss loach good bye)

repeat treatment on days 2 and 3 if you still see spots on day 3 dose again on day 4 give another dose on day 6 and 7

do another big change.

during treatment reduce feeds just feed once a day as much as they eat in about 30 seconds to a minute.

can you get some close up photos of the effected fish? if its not white spot have a read of the plague stickies in the illness section.

[BigDaddyAdo]

Looks like a damn nasty case Dave. Hope you get it sorted mate.

[Old Dave]

Dohh... :banghead :banghead Public Holiday. Everything is closed.

Option 1 Do 90% wc, add salt and apply protozin tomorrow? :?
Option 2 Do nothing until tomorrow? :evil:

I have about 400l warming up at the moment & plenty of salt.
The loach seems happy at the current level of salt so I'll move him into the QT tank & treat him seperately.
He survived ws when in QT about a year ago.

Should I flush the sump with newly treated water while I'm at it?

What about the plants?

Which way to go?
Next step is :coffee

Thanks for you interest & help.

Dave

[Hollowman]

You say newly quarentined Dave, how exactly did you do this? :?

Change as much water as you can and follow Jothy's advice

Steve

[Old Dave]

You say newly quarentined Dave, how exactly did you do this? :? Steve

6 rams in a 20l tank.
Treated with pp and then prazi over a 3 week period. Used clean (after wc) discus tank water for rams wc's.
One pair of the rams laid eggs for the second time so I thought it safe enough to move some into the discus tank.

:banghead :banghead :banghead
Old Dave

[Old Dave]

Progress? report.

Sump is now working directly to the weir, not the tank.
Will address later. Currently there are no filters on discus tank.

Removed plants to 90l plastic tub. New (slightly) aged water.
Will do pp treatment in the next day or so.
How long should they be in isolation?

Relocated clown loach into 20l QT tank.
Will wc with salt tomorrow.
Maybe pp at the same time.

>90% water change. 1 tsp cooking salt / 20l premixed.
Same 6.8 pH. Lowest temp on wc was 30.0C.
Expected temp around 31.5C.

I thought I had the white spot beaten as the rams & some of the discus which had been lightly infected were visually clear.

I just don't understand the difference in symptoms between some of the fish.
The white bits appear more fluffy? than actual spots.
Something to do with the slime coat?

One of the red spotted turqs has been rubbing on the heater.
Looks like a lot of scales scratched or burnt off.
Will an ordinary heater protector fit a 200W Jaeger?

Thanks for all your help.

A few pics, a little sleep and then to Day 2.

Old Dave.

[Old Dave]

I have been reading the Discus Plague posts as per Jothy's comment.
The symptoms seem relevant except that the rams & the loach got the white spots. The gs pleco seems normal.
The yellow discus on the tank floor in the small group pic has excess white slime & there is fin & tail rot evident on several of the fish. She improved after the wc.

Is it possible that the white spot weaked the fish to the point where plague might have taken over?

I lost a nice discus unexpectedly a week or two before putting the rams into the tank.
Pigeon based so no going black but it was a sudden unexplained death with finfot & a whitish slime coating.

It seems to me that I should start lowering the pH (acid) and maybe add pp.
I have enough metro to add to food if required but not enough to treat the whole tank.

No Protozin as yet.

Which way do I go?

Thanks to All,

Dave.

[Old Dave]

All is not well.

Little yellow one no longer with us.

I am slowly dropping the pH, hopefully in only 0.2 steps. Currently at 6.6.
Temp still at 31.5C. Thinking about lowering it due to the acceleration of the disease?

Another roadblock.
How can I measure below pH 6.0 without a electronic pH meter?

Added pp at about half strength.
Still trying not to shock the fish with massive changes.
They must be hurting something terrible.

pic of "the cowboy" only a few hours later.
So rapid.

Dave.

[Hollowman]

I think you need to give them stability, not keeo throwing meds in or changing the ph. Large water changes will be best for them right now.

[ILLUSN]

as steve said big water changes are the best thing, good water quality will do wonders for your fish.

I agree from the new pics it does look like white spot but the fact you have it in such a hot tank is VERY disturbing.

its not unusuall for some fish to get it and other not some just have a better immunity to it.

i wouldn't pp anymore pp is an oxidative agent and will strip the slime coat off your fish in many cases making the condition worse, salt wll haelp ALOT Ick HATES salt if you can stabilise your ph at 6.5 even 6.0 that should be enough to help the fish get the upper hand.

a heater guard would be a good investment if you get the xL version it will fit a jager 200.

you should also look at a ph pen and a set of solution for calibration, ben at AOA has some very reasonably priced pens. liquid kits dont do too well below 6, the hagen wide range kit will go down to 5 but colors are hard to read.

[Greggy]

White Spot (Ich) is both easy to identify and treat.

But as stated you really have to stop screwing around with all the pH, temperature and medication changes you are making.

White Spot initially looks like someone has sprinkled grains of salt over your fish. This stresses the fish and they will quickly look ragged if the disease is not treated promptly. Death will follow shortly if it continues untreated.

How to get rid of it? Use White Spot treatment containing malachite green AND formaldehyde (formalin), as these two drugs work better together. Follow the instructions on the bottle but DO NOT half dose and DO NOT stop treatment after 3 or 4 days, you need to keep the treatments up for 2 weeks to make sure you kill the Ich 'swarmers' which is the only vulnerable stage of the Ich life cycle. Keep the temp of the tank at 31C during the entire treatment process as this will also help.

If your fish are strong (Dicus are strong aquarium fish) and not too far gone already they will survive the above treatment process. The Ich won't.

Regards,

Greggy

[Andrew Soh]

Hello Dave,

If you believe that the cause is white-spot, the immediate action should be water-change and dose with salt @ 200gms per 100 litres of water for a week or two.....and since your tank holds 450L, it should be 900gms. Do that everyday with 100 water-change and salt. What remedy can 6 to 10 tablespoons of salt do? Practically nothing!!!!

But since we do not see pictures of discus with white-spot, could it really be white-spot? As you mentioned, they spots look like rather fluffy...and that is not white-spots but possible irritation of the epdermis caused by sudden temperature-change or chemicals in municipal water or multiple parasites infestation. Did you use anti-chlorine or did you overdose ant-chlorine?

After the treatments you made, the fins got burned and so did the epidermis. To me, this is an overkill....overdosing of chemicals.

Presented with this condition, salt becomes an essential addition whenever you make WC as blood will be leached from the open wounds. You may not see the wounds but they are definitely there and salt is to prevent dehydration.

Many hobbyists immediately go to the LFS to seek treatment whenever they see something amiss instead of making immediate water-change and/or increase temperature or post-mortem what they have done hours ago which could have caused this...and make a difference. Always believing that whatever change in their discus needs immediate heavy chemical treatment is wrong.

MY suggestion now is to stop all other treatments. From your pictures, you now need to make 100% waterchange.....remember to add anti-chlorine or anti-chloramine (don't overdose)...........add 200gms/100litres water...........and acriflavine........bringing temperature to 29C....and feedback to us daily.

Take care,
Andrew

[Old Dave]

Thanks for your comments everyone. :oops:

Definitely white spot on the rams & loach.
From there on, everything spirals downward. :cry:

I have taken the tank down to 3" of water & added 3" of wc change water with salt at 1 tsp / 20l to be consistent.

I will replace 50% a little later this arvo. One step at a time.
Might move them (in buckets) to a old 4' tank in the garage. :ug
Should be easier to wc but more difficult to monitor. :ug

I have been using the same water ager for a long time. Usage is 1ml / 38l so it is pretty strong.
If it is an overdose situation it is more likely to be the Rapid White Spot remedy, used with salt.

Anyway, I have to dig myself out of this hole..
Your responses are greatly appreciated.

Deeply Gratitudinous.. :salute
Old Dave

[goldenpigeon]

Hey there Old Dave

Sad to see your fish unhappy... and it looks very weird.

To me it could of started out as White Spot but i believe what they now have must be some sort of other bacterial infection. White Spot rarely occures in water with temperatures above 28 degrees celcius and certainly not in water that is 30+ degrees.

Moving forward here are my suggestions. You have already been given good advice here and i dont want to go against what anyone has said and confuse thing but here is what i would do to improve your fishes health in the short term:

1. Keep the temp high, 31 - 32 degrees wont hurt your discus but at least keep it at 30.

2. Large water changes at least once a day, twice is better and try to keep water stable every time. ensure they dont recieve big temperature or ph shocks. If possible keep your ph low, around 5.5 or 6. If your ph is not low at the moment try get it down gradually but remember - keep things as stable without sudden change.

3. Keep the salt up, plenty of salt wont hurt them. Use the dosage rate that Andrew Soh has provided. What salt are you using?

4. Airation is a big thing for me. Whenever my discus have gotten sick in the past i really cranked the air stones, keep the oxygen up. They are probably spending quite a bit of the time near the surface getting as much oxygen as possible.

I think if you keep it simple and stick to that you might not fully solve your problem to begin with but at least see improvement. The more you change their enviroment the more you stress them. Once you get some improvement you can work in other avenues. White spot is not hard to treat and it should be well and truely gone now if it is what your fish have now.

Also, in relation to water ager - i have burned my fish in the past by using too much of the product so this could be a cause. May i suggest you use Seachem Prime. In my own experience and many others it is the best product available here by far.


Keep us posted with any developments mate. I hope this helps.

Cheers, David

[Old Dave]

How to reply to all those who responded with help & support?
Totally appreciated your advice & concern. :thumb :thumb
I'll be as honest as I can to stop others making similar mistakes.

Lots of clean water has things pretty stable.

I would probably have lost more discus if I had kept up with the pp treatment. Looking back I think the White Spot Remedy I used resolved the original problem but I have some Protozin on hand for extreme problems.
Thanks to Jothy & Greggy .

Sometimes you doubt everything and need a little positive re-enforcement.
Thanks Hollowman. :whip

Andrew saw the problem straight away. I'll have to read his 2nd book again, especially p103.
I retraced my processes and here is what I found. :banghead
Firstly I changed the 4' tanks I use for wc prep. The original was 120x45x45. Had no problem with water quality with this one. The current one is 120x45x35. I assumed it to be 200l. It actually holds about 180l max. I was dosing ager as if it was 220l, but the biggest problem was that there was possibly 50l of aged water already in the tank that I wasn't accounting for.
I suppose I figured that water ager dies off over time when in storage and it wouldn't hurt?

A hint on the Rapid White Spot Remedy, which worked as claimed.
I wrote on my bottle " 100% WC BEFORE RE-TREATMENT".

If you can you come up with a better name for this thread I will edit it.

Thanks to all,
A wiser Old Dave

[Hollowman]

I am happy things are getting more stable Dave. :wink: