What is goin on with my tank?!! Cloudy, ammonia 5.0!!

[Melsy]

A week or two or go, I had a big ammonia outbreak, did huge water changes, got it down to nil, since then been doing regular changes, came home yesterday and the water was all cloudy, and all of the fish were at the top of the tank like they were trying to get air.....
Called my LFS and she told me to put carbon in my filter,
Tank is bare bottom, with air curtin, tested all parameters
Nitrite 0
nitrate 0
ph 6
ammonia 6.0!!!
How does this still happen with reguar water changes? Im not overstocked (220L with 1 adult discus, 4 smaller, 10 neons, 3 gouramis). I did about a 60% water change yesterday afternoon, they were not at the top and it wasnt as cloudy, then this morning it as cloudy as yesterday and all fish at the top again! Ammonia now reads 5.0-6.0!
I've been putting ammo lock in (yesterday).
Tank has been cycling since January.
Does anyone have any ideas why I keep getting ammonia spikes?

[Hollowman]

For a start I would say that your filter did not cycle properly. You need to get the ammonia down to zero and quick. Do you leave uneaten food in the tank? is the intake of the filter low eniugh to suck in uneaten food?

[Melsy]

How many months does it take for a filter to cycle?
I know that I need to get the ammonia down, as Im aware how harmful it is, I have done 2 60% water changes in the last 12 hours, and will be doing another as soon as I get home from work...
My question is what could be the issue that is causing this?
The intake filter is 20-25 cms from the bottom of the tank, any uneaten food and waste accumulates at the bottom front corner, not close enough to the filter intake for it to be going up there, I generally keep an eye on it as it accumulates after feeds and vac it out.
Ive been thinkin maybe I need to clean out my filter, but worried about killing good bacteria in the process..

[Melsy]

oh and thanks for your reply hollowman..sorry if I sound a bit on edge... stressed :ug

[jesx57]

You won't kill the bacteria in the filter if you rinse the filter media in the water you siphoned out from your tank during a water change. Just make sure you don't have the filter closed up and power off for more than 30 minutes otherwise your bacteria in the filter will start to die because of the lack of oxygen.

What type of filter is it? Mine's a canister and I always find it a pain to clean out, but it has to be done.

Hope that answers your question.

[bartek]

Some questions I have:
How long has the tank been running?
What filter do you have?
What did you clean the tank out with before setting it up?
Did you add the fish gradually or all at once?

Sounds like the filter hasn't been cycled properly or at least the bacteria in the filter is not sufficient to breakdown the ammonia.

[ILLUSN]

your filter hasn't cycled, you will need to cycle your filter this will take 40days to 2 months, thats how long you should run a tank befor putting fish into it.

do a massive water change, keep adding ammo lock, dont feed for 24hrs, after that reduce feeding to once every 2 days, clean up uneaten food after each feeding.

you will need to do aily changes to keep your water quality up while your filter cycles.

[Melsy]

Im just stumped as to why it wouldnt be cycled if I have had the filter running on the tank for 3 months! The guy I bought my fish off very confidently told me that adding fish after a fishless cycle of a few weeks would speed the cycle up, this is obviously not the case right?

I have an AquaOne Canister filter (1000 i think)
I didnt clean the tank out, as it was brand new,
and most of the fish ive added gradually

thanks for all your help, maybe im just not cut out for this :?

[taksan]

What declorinator do you use when you do WC's?

[Melsy]

Ive been using it for 3 months, its called AquaMaster Water Ager chlorine neutraliser.

I did a 70% water change yesterday afternoon, checked the ammonia this morning

Ammonia 4.0

Feel like Im fighting a loosing battle, and that it doesnt matter how much water I change the ammonia just wont go down, but I will keep at it,
does anyone think a 90% water change is safe?

[Hollowman]

Have you tested your tap water before you add it to the tank??

I think you need to try to get some mature filter media from someone closr to help you mature your filters. Obviously your filters have not matured properly.
You need to feed less, make sure everything is squeeky clean. I think I would go for trying to get some mature media, nuke your current media and start a fishless cycle again.

Not much help really, but you are between a rock and a hard place right now. :cry:

[ILLUSN]

does anyone think a 90% water change is safe?

i would personally do a 90% change then a second 90% change strait away, doing so will drop your ammonia down from 4.0 to 0.04 keep up daily changes and keep removing uneaten food after each feeding you will need to do daily changes (75%+) for the next month atleast.[/list]

[taksan]

I'd nuke it with a 90% WC and 3 bags of biochemZorb another 3 of nitrazorb and another 3 of purigen.

[Melsy]

Thanks, Ive been doing about 70% daily, and I cleaned out my filter this morning, it was pretty mucky!! Wouldnt want to do that on a quesy stomach! When I was doing this I noticed a really heavy buildup of something inside the inlet and outlet hoses, I think it might be mulm, but im thinkin this could also be contributing to the ammonia. As hollowman said everything should be sqeaky clean, so im going to fix that issue, tested the ammonia first thing this morning and it was down to about 2.0 or 3.0 max, so thats a good sign...I will follow Illusn's advice and now do another 90% change (i think at this rate I'm definatly on Gippsland Water's radar) :wink: :lol:

Just wondering Taksan, whats biochemZorb, nitrazorb and purigen. Are these safe to put in the tank with fish in there, and what do they do?!

Thanks
mel

[Melsy]

oh and just to throw another spanner in the works, last night my 4 month old heater broke, I noticed a crack and water in it! It was a nightmare trying to source another at 10pm on a friday nite!!!

I think Im just havin a bad run...... :wink:

No fatalities thus far...but I DONT think they consider me a friend right now

[Melsy]

wow I just made a startling revellation! I was taking heater back to LFS, and was looking at the date on the receipt that I got the tank....it was only march! not january, so now Illusn, I understand how it cant have been cycled fully, its been in operation for under 2 months, not 3-4 as I thought! what an idiot, i have no concept when it comes to time :roll:

[DiscusDave]

That's still enough time to cycle a tank, after a couple off weeks there should be a nitrite reading and after 4 weeks you should have a Nitrates showing up. It may pay to use a biostarter - there are a few good ones around like Nitrivec (Sera) and Stability (Seachem) which I can vouch for. Prime (Seachem) is also good to protect fish during a cycle.

Dave

[Melsy]

Thanks Discusdave, I actually just got back from lfs, and I bought Seachem Stability!
My concern now is the increased reading of Nitrite, Im getting a reading of about 0.25, is the solution to this massive water changes? Im figuring so! I'll do 80% then add the seachem stability. I have added a quantity of aquarium salt this morning....we'll see how it all goes

[DiscusDave]

That's good, stability is excellent and when I've used it the Nitrite spike is usually pretty short lived - often I miss it if I don't test every day (which I usually don't :) ). The salt will help protect the fish from Nitrite poisoning.

Dave

[lpiasente]

Melsy I notice you are in gippsland, which part?

[ILLUSN]

nitrite can be partially controled by salt, adding salt at 1 tsp/40L will help prevent brown blood disease.

[taksan]

BTW If you used Prime as a conditioner then all these problems would be moot.

[Goerge_of_the_Jungle]

I had the same trouble when starting up my first tank. I stocked it to quickly, my bacteria colonies couldn't keep up with the overload and WAMO! ... ammonia went up, and then the nitrite shot up as well. I went to a LFS and got Serra AmmonaVec + Serra NitriVec (You need to use the two products together, as the AmmoaVec eats the Ammonia, turning it into Nitrites and the NitriVec eats the Nitrites, turning them into Nitrates). This boosted my bacteria Colonies and everything settled down. Also, as previously mentioned, NitriZorb is a fantastic product. No - it does not harm your fish, its a rechargeable pouch of minerals that removes Ammonia and Nitrite from your tank. You install it into your canister in the flow of the water and leave it for 2 - 3 months, then you take it out, let it soak in warm salty water for 8 - 24 hours (for best results - overnight) and re use it again. Fantastic product, i always have a pouch running in all my tanks.

Also, if you don't already, use a activated bacteria product, such as cycle. Or, if you dont mind a drive up my way, my favaroute LFS sells a product called Bacta-Boost which is more concentrated then any other product i kow of, that you can redily get your hands on, on the market at the moment - 2gm of this stuff does 200L of water.

Personally, i wouldn't do 90% water changes. I would do quite a few 25 - 50% ones, remembering though, to not stress the fish any further. Yes, the good bacteria live mostly in your substrate and canister, however there are also good bacteria in your water also, and taking 90% of your water, may do more harm then good when your bacteria colonies are starting to establish - this is just my belief.

[DiscusDave]

Hi George,

That's not totally correct. Nitrivec contains nitrifying bacteria which breaks down both ammonium and nitrites - plus other additives to help them get established quicker. http://www.sera.de/index.php?id=288&L=1

Ammovec is the salt water version of Nitrivec. http://www.sera.de/index.php?id=374&L=1&no_cache=1&sword_list[0]=ammovec

Bacta-Boost sounds like it does the same thing as Nitrivec. I've read claims that true nitrifying bacteria only has a 3 month shelf life but Sera and Seachem produces do work so I beleive this is either misinformation or Sera and Seachem have some secrets they're not letting on.

Regards

Dave

[Goerge_of_the_Jungle]

G'day Dave,

The AmmoniVec and NitriVec i had, had to be used in conjunction with each other, as they both had their own 'Seperate' bacteria types. Now though, it looks as though serra have brought out the new formula that you mentioned, the BIO -Nitrivec, which seems to knock down both Ammonia and Nitrite. I haven't checked out the sera site in a while, or even needed any type of product like that. I guess im a little behind the times. :shock:

As for the Booster i mentioned, yes, it does contain the bacteria the aquarium needs to sustain happy and healthy lives for your fishies, just nike Bio-NitriVec - but this contains everything and more that cycle does, plus its more concentrated, AND its a little cheaper ...

IMO its better then Cycle :P

[Melsy]

Thanks guys, looks like I have some shopping to do!

Discus Dave, i think that Seachem stabilise stuff has done a good job by the looks of it, I woke up this morning to find the water clearer than its ever been, my fish look really happy for the first time in a few weeks, and the ammonia has dropped right down..

Lpiasente, Im in Traralgon..discus suppliers are non existant down this way, I dont even know if anyone around here has them (they dont know what they're missin out on!) Do you source yours from melb?

So is Seachem Prime better to use as a water conditioner than the stuff I am using? and if so, it wouldnt be an issue for me to just switch to that right?

The NitriZorb sounds pretty good, the only question I have with this is, when I add salt to the water would it re-release the ammonia like the zeolite ammonia remover pouches do?

The booster that you mentioned George, would it be similar to the seachem stability?

:) Starting to feel some relief! thanx

[Goerge_of_the_Jungle]

Yeah its is, it replaces seachem stability & cycle - however, seachem stability & cycle directions are 5ml per 40L - this stuff i have been using is 5ml per 200L - more concentrated. I'm glad your ammonia levels have come down, keep dosing and you'll be fine - along with your water changes. Things are looking brighter for you :wink:

[Goerge_of_the_Jungle]

The NitriZorb sounds pretty good, the only question I have with this is, when I add salt to the water would it re-release the ammonia like the zeolite ammonia remover pouches do?

Nah, it will be fine - however you can not use them in marine set ups - to much salt.

[Melsy]

Thanks George, I will get on that, the Seachem Stability is obviously working well, but due to the dosage it is a fairly expensive additive (who ever said keeping discus was cheap :wink: )
Water parameters
Ammonia 1.0
Nitrite and Nitrate 0
PH 6
might try and find that stuff online

cheers

[DiscusDave]

Hi George,

How confusing, they'd be better off using a totally different name if it's a different product? I did noticed they'd added bio on the front but assumed that was just a marketing decisions

Interesting that Stability is costlier - I've not done that comparison. Both are just as effective in my experiance.

Primes an excellent water conditioner. It's very concentrated so it works out pretty cost effective and can be used to detox ammonia and nitrite in an emergency.

Dave

[Goerge_of_the_Jungle]

Hi Dave,
Yeah it is a little confusing, I think what has happened though (after doing a little research since you commented), is they took the 2 ones i had off the market, and made one product to do both. Makes sense, seeing as i was paying $70 for each of them.

And the booster i now purchase, is not a liquid form, its a 'dry' bacteria form.