Breeding Diary with Pic's

[Mickey_owen7]

I've got a pair of Marlboro Reds that have been spawning consistantly for about a year. I havn't put any effort into raising the young so none have survived as of yet. But i'm gonna try and get some juveniles from them this time , I got my exams next year and will not have the time to raise any fry.

They're great parents never been egg eaters, but the fry often don't attach (probs coz there pigeon bloods). I've tried lowering water levels, dimming light, increasing light, low water flow, white backgrounds, white tank decor. Has only worked once and the fry died at 1 month probs due to flukes. :(

I've set up this diary for my own reference and any comments or advice will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Michael :mrgreen:


Some Specs

Tank Dimensions : 70cm x 40cm x 40cm approx 112litres
Filtration: 700l/hr canister on half flow (The input end is wrapped in white mesh as to prevent fry being sucked in)
Water: RO Water which has had hardening crystals added.
Temp at time of spawning (5/12/08): 27.5 degrees celcius
pH at time of spawning (5/12/08): 6 approx (should it be lower?)
gH at time of spawning (5/12/08): 1 approx
kH at time of spawning (5/12/08): 1 approx

[ILLUSN]

a trick is to use a blue light above the fish, a blue fluro tube like a hagen marine glo will do the job, also try coveing the tank in white paper.

[Mickey_owen7]

Lol, never tried that before. I'm willing to give it a go.
Would you happen to know why the blue light may help?
Btw, would a UV sterlizer kill the flukes or be of any great benifit for my breeding interests? I'm looking at an 18W sterlizer for my 350l/hr flow.

Cheers

[Mickey_owen7]

Pics coming soon (can't do anything when the pair spawn on the side of the cone which is backed against a wall. :lol:

Anyways... timeline so far.


Friday 5/12/08 12:30pm Spawning Started, turned off filter
Friday 5/12/08 2:30 pm Spawning complete, turned filter back on.
Friday 5/12/08 10:30 pm Checked everything is going well, turned off the lights and went to bed.
Saturday 6/12/08 9:00 am Checked again, everything seemed fine, but the male was missing some scales. Longer observation while feeding saw no direct fighting between the pair, but the female wouldn’t let the male guard the eggs like their previous spawns. Usually when food is given the female will go for the food while the male takes her place fanning the eggs.
Saturday 6/12/08 10:00 am Got a discus from the community tank and put it in another tank adjacent to the pair to spark some co-operation.
Saturday 6/12/08 10:30 am The other discus was released into the tank and the female went and checked him out. (I’d expected the male to). The male was hesitant to guard the eggs but moved into position. Closer inspection of female also showed scale loss. After about a minute the female moved back to guard her eggs and the male backed away, without any tussle.
Saturday 6/12/08 11:00 am Used a siphon to remove the waste from the bottom (will stop feeding from now on). The male tried to shield my hand away from the side of the tank with the eggs, but seemed less aggressive than usual (he’d always nip my hand previously).


Saturday 6/12/08 11:30 am Male constantly flaring at the intruder in adjacent tank. ….. YES! The pair are taking turns now, back to normal (fingers crossed).

Monday 8/12/08 7:00 Eggs have hatched overnight and wrigglers!!!! Only about 2-3 white eggs out of 150+ , swarm of black coloured wrigglers. Looking great!
Tuesday 9/12/08 7:00 4 days after spawn : The wrigglers are about 36 hours old now. Expecting free-swimming fry tomorrow morning. I have covered the tank in white paper and put a blue light as suggested. Not many of them are falling off the spawning cone.

Water parameters Tuesday 9/12/08 7:00
pH: 6.5 (I used RO water so not risking adding pH down; monitoring very carefully)
gH: 3
kH: 2
Temp: 27 degrees

The female still hasn’t recovered fully from the fighting with the male, with some scale loss and slight fray of pectoral fins. I’m worried whether she would have enough slime for 150+ babies. Her coat doesn’t seem very thick either. Anything else I can do to assist her feeding the young?

Wednesday 10/12/08 8:00 5 days after spawn : The wrigglers are about 60 hours old now. They are still on the cone but are all over the place. Seen a couple wander off, but get returned to the cone by the female. I reckon there is about 200 fry. Hopefully most of them will survive.

Ultimate test today and tomorrow. Most of the time the fry are not attached even 3days after free swimming, but hopefully this time they will.

Thursday 11/12/08 8:00 Most of the fry are free swimming now, huddling in s corner of the tank. There’s a whole swarm of them. Some of them are following the female around already. Started doing little water changes. The female seems to be swimming really quickly across the tank, whenever I approach, maybe just wanting food.

[DIY]

great stuff :mrgreen: :thumb

looking forward to the pics :wink:

[Mickey_owen7]

Lol, gonna struggle to get any photoes for this batch until free swimmers. The pair have spawned in a place where the camera can't get to. But about 150 + eggs.

Thought everyone might be curious....
Here are pics from previous spawn. Enjoy :D

[Mickey_owen7]

Saturday 6/12/08 11:30 am Male constantly flaring at the intruder in adjacent tank. ….. YES! The pair are taking turns now, back to normal (fingers crossed).
Saturday 6/12/08 5:30 pm OPEN AGGRESSION! :shock: Parents fight, male removed immediately. The eggs are all still safe. :?

(Which parent should i move next time this occures?)
I know that one parent is capable of raising the young, but this has never happened before (free swimming fry at least 15 times before). Can anyone expain as to why??? :?:

I also read a thread about PP and will probs use it to medicate the pair next time they spawn. (I'm guessing a spell in the community tank will settle them).. But hope the female can raise the young this time around. :ug

[Mickey_owen7]

a trick is to use a blue light above the fish, a blue fluro tube like a hagen marine glo will do the job, also try coveing the tank in white paper.

Would someone know as to why the blue light may help? I'm really interested. :wink:

[Mickey_owen7]

Here are some.... pretty ordinary photos, but better than nothing. :D

[Mickey_owen7]

in a corner

[Mickey_owen7]

I saw the female trying to rub her gills on the spawning cone today. I'm certain she has flukes and probably worms too, which is bad news since the fry are only starting to feed off her today. :(

Its my mistake for not treating the parents... but there is so much more to learn at 16 years old

My question is... when is the earliest i may treat with PP, praziquantel, metronodizol, acrflavin or any other meds... which will be safe for the fry?

Its a huge spawn (about 200) and things aren't looking great so far. :cry:

[Mickey_owen7]

Friday 12/12/08 9:00 Still haven’t all attached. Female looks irritated… Check the canister filter input area…. About 50 fry stuck. Immediately take out canister and put in a sponge…. (Now I know why every time the fry just seem to disappear) Grrr…. I’ve lost I reckon… about 80+ (and probably thousands in previous spawns) Lesson learnt… now I’ve got about 100 fry left.

Friday 12/12/08 5:00pm After some major head bagging (how could I have been so stupid to run a canister). I was surprised to find about 90% of the fry feeding off mum!!! Not going to take risks with photographing them just yet. However the batch has gone from 150+ to about 80. Lost so many to the canister.

Saturday 13/12/08 6:00pm 2 days after free swimming. Like I said I have lost about 100fry, but still have about 80. They are all attached to the female now (YES!!), except about 2 of them, who are noticeably smaller. Hopefully they’ll do well.

Sunday 14/12/08 7:30am 3 days after free swimming. All eating well, non dead since the fry attached and have doubled in size since yesterday.

Sunday 14/12/08 5:30pm I received my water test kit in the mail and quickly tested the water. pH:6.5, gH1, kH1, Ammonia 0mg/l, Nitrite: 0.05mg/l, Nitrate: 80mg/l… that’s right, I jumped when I got the nitrate so I tested it again. Same reading…. It made perfect sense, algae was starting to grow on the silicon and the glass. I quickly siphoned out 30% of water and replaced with fresh RO water. I will do 25% water changes every hour until 10pm to bring the NO3 right down. I’m just glad I havn’t lost any fry… at all. What a miracle!

[Mickey_owen7]

Haven’t updated for about a week, but everything is fine.

Sunday 21/12/08 7:30am 10 days after free swimming. Everything is going great. Only one or two weak ones which were tiny have perished over the last week; still got around 50 of them. I’m doing 30% water changes twice a day to keep the nitrates down. First brine shrimp hatchery was started on Tuesday. The fry are only beginning to take the BBS. Mum seems to be doing a great job.

Lol… they’re not as big as DIY’s were at 10days. Probably coz only one parent is raising the,… but I guess i haven’t been feeding them BBS enough either. My atremia eggs are probably old too. The hatch rate is quiet poor. The baby discus are taking frozen though… so I’ll up the feeding from now on.

Will try and get some good pics, but my blue light is making it difficult. I'll switch the fluro back to a white one tomorrow.

[Mickey_owen7]

Hey guys, here are some pics i got of them, day 10. Not as good as DIY's, lol my bad photography skills. :lol:

[Mickey_owen7]

Day 11

[Mickey_owen7]

Hey huys, i got "The Naked Truth" and Pro-more from Norto today (cheers mate). Just wondering whether i should feed the brooding female with it now. I'm not sure how the product can be used to best effect. Any pointers?

[ILLUSN]

a trick is to use a blue light above the fish, a blue fluro tube like a hagen marine glo will do the job, also try coveing the tank in white paper.

Would someone know as to why the blue light may help? I'm really interested. :wink:

blue light makes red (and to a lesser degree yellow) fiskh look dark, this makes it easier for the fry to find parents.

[DIY]

Looking good still, You're doing a great job.

I reckon they look similar in size to mine at the same age to be honest, so no worries about that.. and yep taking clear, close-up photo's isn't as quite easy as it looks, I just take heaps of photo's from all different angles and usually end up with a couple of OK ones :wink:

I add promore and progrowth to my b/h mix and feed it to all my discus, including the fry as son as they accept it.

[Mickey_owen7]

Thanks mate!

Hey, what size tub of promore and progrowth to you get? I ordered a 50gram tub of both and they were smaller than i expected. I'm just wondering if it'll be more economical if i got the bigger sizes.... Meh, i'm gonna try it out first.

Lol, if i got a lot of beef heart in the fridge that i made ages ago. How would i go about adding pro-more to that? Thanks

BTW: DIY, what juvi discus have you got around at your place at the moment?

[Merrilyn]

You've done a remarkable job for such a young hobbyist. Congratulations and keep up the good work. You should be very proud of your achievement.

We all learn by our mistakes. Experience is a wonderful teacher :wink:

Next time you'll remember to treat your parents for gill flukes and worms before the go into the clean breeding tank. And you've also discovered why we recommend sponge filters when raising fry.

I'm quite sure next spawn, you'll be raising 250 fry :D

[Mickey_owen7]

Thanks Merrilyn and DIY, you guys have been great support.

Here's what i'm planning to do over the next week or so.

I've ordered a 35 UV sterilizer from Guppies. Hope the babies can take 300l/hr from the canister by 15 days (26th Dec). Hopefully this is gonna help with the flukes. :wink: I'm keeping up with 50% water changes twice a day.

Prazi treatment at 1/4 strength 24th Dec
Prazi treatment at half strength 26th Dec
Prazi treatment at 3/4 strength 28th Dec
Prazi treatment at full strength 31st Dec

I've also got Big-L, PP, Metro, Meth Blue, Malachite Green (with acrifalvin). Tell me if those listed would be useful too.

They don't seem to be any signs or symptoms of disease yet, but i'm being cautious. :roll:

Hey, please tell me if what i'm planning to do is going to cause heart-ache. :shock:

[Mickey_owen7]

Monday 22/12/08 12;00pm 11 days after free swimming. Nothing much is happening and the fry are still eating furiously. I have increased BBS feeding to once every 2 hours. Mum is periodically darting around and shimmering to get the fry off, but they just keep coming back.

Tuesday 23/12/08 10:00 am 12 days after free swimming. The fry are always on the look out for food. They are just beginning to try the beef heart and colour-bits (with pro-more). Lol, I’ve still got around 50 fry, but I can begin to see some which I’m going to cull (Few are still small and others have a deformed spine). Can anyone tell me why I get some fry which have a spin that looks like a “V”? Lol, the head is facing up (top of the V), and the gut is at the bottom of the “V” and then the tail is as high up as the head. I’ve only got 1 or two of them like that this time, but last time I had at least 10. Thanks . :lol: i actually dont have any this time on second inspection.

[Mickey_owen7]

Wednesday 24/12/08 10:00am I saw one fry darting around furiously at about dinner time on the 23rd. From DIY's thread (Thanks mate!) I’m suspecting flukes so i have treated with Prazi. The fry are only 2 weeks old so I didn’t want to use PP. The dosage was minor (only 100mg for 100l, where the full dosage should be 500mg for 100litres), but none have died this morning. I will get some fresher prazi from the LFS. I’ve also got a 36 watt UV sterilizer coming today, which I’ll hook up to stop the flukes.

[Mickey_owen7]

Day 12 Pics

[Mickey_owen7]

More day 12

[Mickey_owen7]

Last few for today.

[Mickey_owen7]

Thursday 25th/12/08 10am 14 Days. MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!!! The fry are still going strong. None dead since day one. I’m going to do a cull over the next few days because I’m going on hols. If a couple of the weak ones die off and mum doesn’t eat them, then the water will foul. From Andrew Soh’s book, brooders should be okay without food for about 5 days (I’m only going for 3 days).

[Mickey_owen7]

Here are some of my better pics from day 21.

[Mickey_owen7]

The growth is a bit varied due to the infrequent feeding while i was on holiday. I was more concerned about water quality though.

[Mickey_owen7]

This one is about average size.. bit small i guess, but i'm feeding them a lot now. :lol:

[Mickey_owen7]

Friday 26th/12/08 10am 15 Days. Everything still going well. The prazi is great. However the mother is darting around quiet a bit, but I have no choice but to leave her in there as I’ll be on holidays until 31st. The babies will starve for sure if I removed the parent.

Friday 26th/12/08 6pm 15 Days. One dead! First one since day 1. It was a pretty large one too. I have done a 50% water change and will do another one before bed. I guess the ammonia spiked while I was in the city for the boxing day sales. I’ve upped the oxygen and added another sponge filter.

Saturday 27th/08 10am 16 Days. All fry have survived first night without mum. I think I have done well. I’ve placed all my culls in the adjacent tank with mum and they’re still feeding off her. This is because I can’t afford for a few weaker ones to die and pollute the water while I’m on holidays. I’ve upped the water changes to 50% per feed. Each cycle is taking about 3 hours.

Sunday 31st/12/08 21 Days. All the fry have survived the four days while I was on hols. An auto feeder with crushed colour-bits were fed twice a day. They havn’t grown a lot, but a few are starting to take on a red tinge along the fins. However the growth is a bit varied. I guess it is because the larger ones are able to consume the crushed colour-bits while the smaller ones cannot.

[Mickey_owen7]

Soz havn't updated in ages. Well its 12th Jan so the lil discus are 33 days old. I treated with PP on day 26 and all seem to be fine now. None died during or after the pp treatment!!! I've got about 30 pieces left and they're doing great. Hopefully the 4 week syndrome has passed Lol, can't get any good pics atm but they're coming.