Problem - Discuss Acting Weird & On The Tank Bottom

[swingn]

Hey All

I came home last night & my beloved discuss was hardly breathing & sitting on the bottom of the tank.

I proceeded to top up / do a small water change, add Cycle & other various suppliments etc.

My PH & carbonate hardness is always all over the place, but as we all know, Discuss don't mind a lower PH. I've never had any problems with the quality of water etc although I will admit I don't take as good a care of the tank as I should.

To give you a good idea of how happy my discuss has been previously, she was actually laying eggs every 2-3 weeks up until 2 months ago..., What's weird is there is no other discuss! The night before last she was as usual etc, but then crashed last night.

This morning she seemed to be normal again, but obviously I am rather concerned.

Any advice would be most appreciated.

Cheers

[Merrilyn]

It sounds very much like you've got a water problem.

Increase your water changes to 30% twice a week, or if that's not possible with your work schedule, then do 50% once a week, but you need to be regular with those water changes. You really can't skip a week without inviting disaster.

[swingn]

I thought that could've been the case. I have already done a part water change the night the problem occured & also changed some of the filter matter / wool.

Will try a good water change on the weekend, but she is acting a lot better currently. Only thing is, she seems a little more timid then usual. I have two good sized clown loches which she normally chases off during feeding time, but now she gettings a little knocked around.

Is there anything else I should trying out?

[BigDaddyAdo]

You say your Ph is all over the place? Thats a problem. Your Ph needs to be stable. Can you expand on your Ph issues?

Did you test all the usual parameters (ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, etc.)?.

What is your WC schedule like?

One discus on its own will get very lonely and stressed out. She will probably not feel all that safe.


Ado

[swingn]

You say your Ph is all over the place? Thats a problem. Your Ph needs to be stable. Can you expand on your Ph issues?

Did you test all the usual parameters (ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, etc.)?.

What is your WC schedule like?

One discus on its own will get very lonely and stressed out. She will probably not feel all that safe.


Ado

When I say PH is all over the place, I mean its not sitting at the usual 7. Currently it would be sitting at 6 is not a little lower which I know is not a problem for discus. Hasn't bothered my other fish either (Clown loaches, hatchet fish etc).

Currently I would be changing my water every 1-2 months, which I know if pretty slack.

My discus has been on its own pretty much the entire time I've owned her. I bought her when she was very small & I bought her a mate. Her mate died around 2-3 months of owning them. Ever since she has been on her own (Mixed with other fish).

Have not had any dramas until the other night & she's always acted very happy.

I would love to get another discus, but have had bad experiences with adding more discus to an existing discus tank. May be slightly off topic, but is there any advice on that front?

[BigDaddyAdo]

If you can only do a water change every 1-2 months I suggest you sell your fish and tank and find a new hobby. I doubt very much that any of your fish are doing fine.

Ill stop now as flaming is not allowed....:)


Ado

[swingn]

If you can only do a water change every 1-2 months I suggest you sell your fish and tank and find a new hobby. I doubt very much that any of your fish are doing fine.

Ill stop now as flaming is not allowed....:)


Ado

I'm happy to cop any critisism. I deserve it in this case. I know that once every 1-2 months is not enough. What would be best? Once a month? Once every 2 weeks?

In saying that I have a 165L tank with only a hand full of fish (8) & have not experienced any problems. I dare to say, if my fish were unhappy, then my discus would not have been laying eggs :P

Either way, I am aware I need to take a little more care of the tank in general.

[bartek]

Once a week is the best for water changes.

What filtration do you have.

If you add more filtration that would help as well.

[Hollowman]

Keeping discus means you need to keep your water in tip top condition, period! anything other than this will be detremental to your fish. I change 50% every other day, and I still feel this isn't enough. You need to read all about discus and re-think if they are the fish for you.

Sorry to tell it like it is, but you need to know this. We all love our fish, and hate to see or hear of them suffering. Just go to your LFS and see what I mean.

H

[BigDaddyAdo]

Probably worth mentioning that all fish need clean water to be healthy...not just discus.....


Ado

[Hollowman]

Probably worth mentioning that all fish need clean water to be healthy...not just discus.....


Ado

Agreed! :D

[swingn]

Once a week is the best for water changes.

What filtration do you have.

If you add more filtration that would help as well.

As I have an "all in one" set up, I'm not exactly sure what the filter set up is specifically called. I have also set up it slightly differently to standard to filter a little more effeciently.

I'm getting mixed feed back about the level / amount of water changes needed. I am aware that discus love fresh water (As do most fish) but as I am not breeding etc, I just want to ensure that the fish are in good health.

The fish shop I go to recomends changes on my size tank every 3-4 weeks, which is what I generally endevour to do. I know some other people that would change their water every 3-4 months & have never had any problems (Of course they have much larger tanks with better filters etc). I also rinse my filter matter in syphoned tank water every 2-3 water changes to enusre the is no excess build up.

In my old tank (120L) I used to change the water every 2-3 weeks which kept everything nice & clean & my fish never had any problems.

I just did a water change over the weekend & I am getting all the PH back to the right level etc. Do you think I should keep it lower then the standard 7? Currently its sitting on 6.2.

Due to the problem I experienced last week, I'm also going to do another good size water change on Wednesday evening & will probably do another this coming weekend. From there I'm going to get back to normal doing water changes every few weeks... Obviously I respect & will take on board anyones opinions / suggestions / advice.

For general information, although I have not been taking the best care of my tank of late, I have been keeping discus for many years & have never had a problem up until the other night. I do keep a close eye on the behavour of my fish & if there is any change then I spring into action! Thus why I was genuinly shocked when the issue occured. My discus & other fish were acting perfectly normal that morning.

[Hollowman]

From there I'm going to get back to normal doing water changes every few weeks... Obviously I respect & will take on board anyones opinions / suggestions / advice.



Don't keep discus.............really!

You have asked for advice, and we have given you suggestions on how to keep your fish healthy. I am not blowing my trumpet here, but the advice you can receive here from myself and the great members of the Admin team Moderators and other members will be of far more use than what you seem to want to rely on from your LFS.
Ok, so you have kept your discus without many problems.......but you are having some problems. One water change does not cure them. In my opinion, all you are doing is killing your fish slowly. You have again said you had another problem, but never expanded on that one, maybe your lfs can help?
Personally, I like to rely on the wealth of experience gained through years of fishkeeping, represented by the experts here.

Sorry if my words sound hard, but I love to help, and if you read my posts I will always give the best advice I know, if I don't know, then I ask the experts here.
You make the right decision for you, if you think a monthy water change is best go for it. Discus can live for up to 14 years. I wish you luck.

H :D

[BigDaddyAdo]

I look at it this way. You can keep a dog locked up in a dirty filthy shed for its entire life. Sure it will survive but it most certainly wont be happy and healthy. To me not maintaining a clean healthy tank is no different. Its just not as obvious when a fish is suffering. Animal cruelty is animal cruelty whether it be a mammal or a fish.....Dont even get me started on Bettas kept in jars half full of water.......GRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!


Ado

[swingn]

Guys, I think everyone needs to take a step back.

I joined this forum to get some advice, but I didn't join to get told off.

My last post in this tread I did mention that I was doing several water changes to get things back into line. Then I will be settling into doing regular water changes once again based on the feed back I've received from this forum & to ensure the happiness of my discus & other fish.

Depending on who you speak to & what your wanting to achieve from your fish tank set up (IE breeding, show fish etc) everyone has different methods of upkeep. Everyone is entitled to their opinions & I respect each & everyone & I do take the information on board. However, for people to flat-out tell me that I shouldn't be keeping discus & should get rid of them is just going too far.

I appreciate that there are many of you that have been keeping fish for longer then me & therefore have more knowledge & experience. I have been keeping discuss for approx 3 years & keeping other tropical fish for approx 5. If I did not care for my fish properly, then I would not have had my discus laying eggs, nor would I have other various fish spawning.

I am here to learn more about discus & to gather advice / information from people who are experts. I can handle constructive criticism, but at this stage I'm feeling that I'm being attacked. Which I obviously don't appreciate.

If you are truly worried about the way I keep my discus & other fish, then help me by giving me feed back & information in a civil manner to allow me to learn & become a better keeper.

[bartek]

Ok so basically you say that you have in the past and are looking to do in the future changed you water every 2-3 weeks.

Members on this forum in general tend to change there water once a week as a minimum in addition to having sufficient filtration. As you can see the opinion and advise given to you so far have reflected this. This in my view will not change.

You can sum it up as follows in my view:

Advice given - change water once a week as a minimum and depending on filtration.
Your current regime - change water every 2-3 weeks.

In the end its your choice.

As a side thought have you thought about worms? Have you wormed your discus recently?

[lpiasente]

Hi swingn , I get where you are comming from about conflicting advice. When you walk into an aquarium they all are at you giving their 2 bits worth and telling you how you shoudn't listen to internet advice, they know nothing blah blah blah. It does get confusing. I made the choice to listen here and here only. I let the lps rave on and then just don't take their advice. I mean have a look at the way they house their bettas!!!!! No bloody idea.

[BigDaddyAdo]

I understand that you may not like the responses so far but what can you expect when you only do a WC every 2 months?

I dont care how good the filtration is, its quite simply not enough and i really dont see how your fish could possibly be healthy.

Im not trying to be rude but i would have thought that after 5 years of keeping fish you would have had more of an idea of whats right and whats wrong. Alot of things come down to the whole "what works for you" way of thinking but some things are just plain wrong.

If i see someone mistreating an animal no matter what it is im going to pull them up.

What are your Nitrate readings after 2 months of no water changes?

How often do you clean the substrate?

I doubt that your filtration is adequate as all the built in filters i have seen are not the best. I could be wong though.

I still agree that if you dont have the time or inclination to look after your fish than you shouldnt keep them in the first place.


Ado

[swingn]

Thanks bartek & lpiasente. This is the kind of advice / feed back I've been wanting.

No I haven't wormed me discus... Infact this is the first I've heard about it! Can you please advise how / what to use in order to do this.

Once I have done my several water changes this week & get all the levels correct I will endevour to change my water once a week :D

[jesx57]

The way I see it is that it's best to have some routine. Also, just think, your pH doesn't need to be perfect if it is put in jeopardy of unstableness. It's best to have a higher stable pH than a lower, more desirable pH that could crash. Start at one w/c a week and see how you go, you'll soon find quicker and more efficient ways, you won't even think of it after a while.

[swingn]

I understand that you may not like the responses so far but what can you expect when you only do a WC every 2 months?

I dont care how good the filtration is, its quite simply not enough and i really dont see how your fish could possibly be healthy.

Im not trying to be rude but i would have thought that after 5 years of keeping fish you would have had more of an idea of whats right and whats wrong. Alot of things come down to the whole "what works for you" way of thinking but some things are just plain wrong.

If i see someone mistreating an animal no matter what it is im going to pull them up.

What are your Nitrate readings after 2 months of no water changes?

How often do you clean the substrate?

I doubt that your filtration is adequate as all the built in filters i have seen are not the best. I could be wong though.

I still agree that if you dont have the time or inclination to look after your fish than you shouldnt keep them in the first place.


Ado

I think your comments are just not called for. Like I said, I'm here to learn & to become a better keeper of discus.

You are entitled to opinion & I respect that. But why not help me out instead of "getting up me"? I'm not pretending to be an expert, far from it, but I'm willing to learn more. There are many things that I do not know; I'll be the first to admit that. Just like I did admit when my problem (Which is now gone btw) first came up, I have not been as thorough as I would like to be & generally am.

From my own experience, I do a water change every 2-3 weeks & my fish have been healthy & happy. I vacuum my gravel every time I do a water a change & the filter matter is always rinsed in tank water &/or replaced (IE Filter wool). I have several friends that have been keeping fish over the years with great success. Each one of them had a different routine in regards to water changes & tank upkeep. Once again, I would like to highlight that if I didn't keep my fish happy etc they would not be laying eggs etc.

[swingn]

The way I see it is that it's best to have some routine. Also, just think, your pH doesn't need to be perfect if it is put in jeopardy of unstableness. It's best to have a higher stable pH than a lower, more desirable pH that could crash. Start at one w/c a week and see how you go, you'll soon find quicker and more efficient ways, you won't even think of it after a while.

Cheers mate! :D

[bartek]

If oyu want to find out about worming discus then do a search on this forum. Its a whole other topic and has been discussed many times before.

[DIY]

swingn,

The responses are passionate as the members here are all discus lovers and hate the idea of any discus suffering in less than the best care possible!

I just wanted to say Kudos to you for accepting the passionate responses and sticking around! IMO It would have been easy for you to leave and go back to your lfs but you have made the right choice by accepting the advice from this forum.



I would love to get another discus, but have had bad experiences with adding more discus to an existing discus tank. May be slightly off topic, but is there any advice on that front?

Couple of things,

one discus on it's own is probably lonely at least one more would be better, and in a 165litre tank with say weekly water changes I wouldn't go above 2. The hard part for you if you don't have a spare tank is Quarantining any new discus - this is essential to ensure a new one is healthy and does not carry any parasites or disease that can be passed on to your existing discus before you notice there is a problem.

Look at the worming threads in the illness & medication section, there is lots of information there on how to worm your discus, basically there is two types of medication required to properly worm them - one for tapeworms and one for roundworms.

[BigDaddyAdo]

I dont really see how i "got up you"...Anyhooooooo....Ill ask again....

What are your Nitrate levels?

Have you considered upgrading your filtration?


I agree lpiasente. How can an LFS expect people to take advice when they house fish in half filled jars...:( You can clearly see they are not happy.


Ado

[Merrilyn]

Okay everyone, take a deep breath.

We don't make judgements on this forum, we try to help, and as we know, there's some bad advice out there in the fish world.

Now here's a member who realizes he's got a problem, and is seeking some advice to make things better for his fish. Let's try to help as much as we can. :P

Okay swingn, let's see if we can give you some background on discus. They originate from some of the cleanest waters in the world. In fact, the bacteria count is so low, that it hardly even registers. The water is warm, high in oxygen, tanin coloured from all the fallen timber, and constantly refreshed. This is where discus live, breed and thrive.

We try to replicate that environment in our tanks by having good filtration, keeping the water heated and giving them fresh water as often as possible.

Fish poop and pass liquid waste constantly. In other words, they are living in their own toilet bowl. Your filter doesn't remove that waste, it just converts it into something else (that's a whole other story). Pollution stays in your tank until you change the media in your filter and change the water.

I look at it this way ... keeping in mind that fish poop in the water all the time, would you be happy to drink a glass of your tank water .................... no ?.............................. but we ask our fish to not only drink it (the actually do) but live in it as well. Makes you think, doesn't it.

Filters are essential in a tank, but they aren't magic. They don't take polluted water and somehow turn it into 'pure' water. They do take the ammonia and nitrite and convert it into nitrate which is less toxic to your fish, but they don't remove it altogether. All that bacteria is still there in your tank, it's just that you don't see it.

It's true that your fish will gradually get used to the pollution in the tank building up over a month or two, because it's a gradual process, but drop a new fish in there that has been used to living in clean water, and it will die within hours. It can't survive the shock from clean water to polluted water.

You're doing absolutely the right thing by your gradual water changes. Keep doing at least two water changes a week for the next month, then test your water. You should have a zero reading of ammonia, zero nitrite and less than 10 of nitrate. Once you've reached those parameters, it's safe to start worming your fish and thinking about some new additions to your tank (but we'll tackle that in another post).

Keep up the good work. Fish are a lot of maintenance, but they're well worth it :P

[swingn]

Thanks DIY!

Have just checked out the worming thread (Most helpful I must say) & have posted something on there.

Until my tank is running back at 100% etc I'm not comfortable with adding any new fish. Have also been worried about adding new discus to an existing discus tank as I know they are territorial fish & I have heard some horror stories.

Once everything is sitting pretty, I'll seriously look into getting myself another blue diamond... Hopefully a male (Fingers crossed)

Wishing I kept my 120L tank now! Oh well, live & learn. I gave it to a good friend of mine, so at least it’s found a good home :D

[swingn]

Okay everyone, take a deep breath.

We don't make judgements on this forum, we try to help, and as we know, there's some bad advice out there in the fish world.

Now here's a member who realizes he's got a problem, and is seeking some advice to make things better for his fish. Let's try to help as much as we can. :P

Okay swingn, let's see if we can give you some background on discus. They originate from some of the cleanest waters in the world. In fact, the bacteria count is so low, that it hardly even registers. The water is warm, high in oxygen, tanin coloured from all the fallen timber, and constantly refreshed. This is where discus live, breed and thrive.

We try to replicate that environment in our tanks by having good filtration, keeping the water heated and giving them fresh water as often as possible.

Fish poop and pass liquid waste constantly. In other words, they are living in their own toilet bowl. Your filter doesn't remove that waste, it just converts it into something else (that's a whole other story). Pollution stays in your tank until you change the media in your filter and change the water.

I look at it this way ... keeping in mind that fish poop in the water all the time, would you be happy to drink a glass of your tank water .................... no ?.............................. but we ask our fish to not only drink it (the actually do) but live in it as well. Makes you think, doesn't it.

Filters are essential in a tank, but they aren't magic. They don't take polluted water and somehow turn it into 'pure' water. They do take the ammonia and nitrite and convert it into nitrate which is less toxic to your fish, but they don't remove it altogether. All that bacteria is still there in your tank, it's just that you don't see it.

It's true that your fish will gradually get used to the pollution in the tank building up over a month or two, because it's a gradual process, but drop a new fish in there that has been used to living in clean water, and it will die within hours. It can't survive the shock from clean water to polluted water.

You're doing absolutely the right thing by your gradual water changes. Keep doing at least two water changes a week for the next month, then test your water. You should have a zero reading of ammonia, zero nitrite and less than 10 of nitrate. Once you've reached those parameters, it's safe to start worming your fish and thinking about some new additions to your tank (but we'll tackle that in another post).

Keep up the good work. Fish are a lot of maintenance, but they're well worth it :P

Thanks heaps Merrilyn!

I'm all set up to do several WC's this week then settle into doing a change once a week :D

I want to try & get my PH & KH to a good level also, then I will proceed to de-worming (Have posted something in that thread). From there, from what I've read, I think I'll be getting my discus a friend :D

[Hollowman]

Takes deep breath............ok...

We hit you hard with the passion we all feel about this wonderful fish. This will help you realise that we strive to get conditions just right for our fish, and passionate advice given has been learnt from experience.
Ok, that said, please read all you can on the forum about all areas of keeping discus. With more regular water changes, believe me, you WILL see a major difference in the way they act, the way they feed and they way they look.

You mention about getting your ph and kh right. My ph right now is 8.2, but I am happy that it is stable, and have no need to change it. Please don't listen to lfs advice any more about trying to change it. Stable is good, and you do not intend to try to breed.

Advice about worming is also spot on.

Do you have a photo of your existing fish? that will give us some pointers as to how it is doing.

We are here to help, thanks for sticking around.

H :)