Phosphate & Nitrate

[swigo]

Hi Everyone,

I need some help/advice on what to do with the above. I know nitrates will reduce with water changes and they have each time I do one - but my phosphates have been off the chart for some time now. I have seachem phosguard and sera phosvec in my cannister and other internal filters, but they have done nothing to fix the problem.

My tap water has pretty much 0 nitrates, but phosphate is off the chart as well. So my concern is that the water changes really wont help with reducing phosphate levels as they are so high straight out of the tap.

Would an RO unit be worthwhile getting?

Thanks

Steve.

[Hollowman]

What issue are the high phosphates giving you?

[swigo]

My LFS told me high phosphates could be dangerous to the fish. I have lost quite a few fish recently. I currently have phosguard and sera phosvec in my filters, but they haven't really done anything.

Also algae (brown on leaves and my java moss) has started to appear. My LFS said that Nitrate increases also as it feeds off the phosphate?

My main concren is that I have lost quite a few fish and thought it is from the high phosphate levels? Water changes do lower the nitrate, but not the phosphate, maybe because my tap water is so high with it as well?

I only have my lights on for 6hrs a day (used to have them on for 10hrs, but LFS said to turn down due to alge) and the tank is not near a window where extra sunlight comes in, so I thought the algae is due to the phosphate?

Ta
Steve.

[Hollowman]

Steve,

I do not think that high phosphate levels are a danger to your fish, although I will bow to higher knowldge on this. If it is in your tap water and you are not using an RO system then I feel that you can only reduce it through using a product of some sort. The trouble with these, like you have already, is that they can only absorb so much before they become useless.
In the long term, it might be worth spending out on an RO system, this would greatly reduce phosphates or negate them altogether. I should imagine that you would have to remineralise the RO (most do) with tap water, or waste from the RO to get your desired conductivity, this would mean in the first case that you put phosphatres back in, but in a lower degree.

The other thing to mention, is that most granular or flake foods contain phosphates, so lowering the amount you feed of these types will also help.

hth

Hollowman

[Greggy]

You may actually need to boost your Nitrates to get the tank back in balance...

http://www.xs4all.nl/~buddendo/aquarium/redfield_eng.htm

I also 'suffer' from high phosphate levels and if my Nitrates go below 20ppm then BBA/BGA goes crazy! It's funny but my 6x2x2 tank is actually better looking and my plants are healthier with NO3 levels between 30 and 40ppm and my fish don't seem to mind at all (Discus, Cardinal Tetras, Rummy Noses, Black Neons, SAEs, Corys, Kuhlie Loaches etc)

As I said its all about balance. Get something out of balance and the system breaks down.

Regards,

Greggy

[Mitch]

are you using any phosphate based buffers like Seachem Discus Buffer?
If so you are only battling against your self tryin to remove it.
If not, the best phosphate remover i have ever found is made by Aqua medic called Aqua Medic Antiphos Fe , here is a link http://www.aquariumproductswholesale.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=12 . This stuff is aewsome phosguard and phosvec dont even come close.
The next best thing is to addsome plants to utilise the phosphate.

[ILLUSN]

if your tap water is high in phosphate then your only choice is a ro unit. I foot believe that this is killing your fish as i have kept discus in tanks with of the charts phosphate and they have spawned successfuly. Post up your water chemistry so we can try and find out why your loosing fish.

[swigo]

Thanks for the replies, I forgot to check back.

My tank parameters are:
ph 7
gh 3
kh 4
amonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 25
po4 10+
fe 0

Tap water is:
ph 8
kh 1
po4 2-2+

I think my original problem was that the LFS gave me discus buffer to use when I first set the tank up, its about 3 months old now. It is a heavily planted tank (400L) and from what was stated here and the research I have done on the forums etc I should not be using the discus buffer in this situation as it is planted - the LFS should have known! I should be using the alkaline buffer? instead.

I have a water aging container I set up last week. Tap water, prime was added and was being heated etc. The lfs told me to buy a little filter(which I did) and load it up with phosguard to get rid of the po4. I did this and they also said to put the buffer in to lower the ph. Well I did this before I knew the above and what do you know, the po4 went through the roof. So that was a waste of phosguard and I just emptied that today and started over (without the buffer!) That little experiment just proved the above point.

So do you think its still worthwhile leaving the tap water to age with the little filter/phosguard working to remove the po4 instead of going down the RO way?

Also I have a co2 system set up with a sera controller. From the research I've done people say 1 bubble per minute. This is what I've got it set to. I have a little sera co2 measuring thing in the tank, but its always green (which is apparently ok according to the instructions) How do people get measurements of ppm? is that the right word? I just want to make sure the co2 is set right.

The controller is set to 6.8 and for a while it was working with the co2 comming off/on as it needed. But now the ph has gone up to 7.1 and the co2 has been on 24/7 for a couple of weeks and the ph wont go back to 6.8. Could this have something to do with the water change I did recently?

Also from what I've read people say to put air bubbles on at night and co2 at day. What was the point of getting the controller if it cuts in and out whenever the ph changes. If it comes on at night isn't that a waste?
Currently I have the bubbles come on from about 9pm when the lights go out to 7am and then the lights come on at 2pm.

Thanks for your help so far and sorry for all the questions, but just want to make sure I'm doing things right.

Steve.

[swigo]

Following on from this, I am getting frustrated with trying to age my water and get it to match whats in the tank. I have replaced the phosguard with some new stuff and hopefully that will get rid of the po4 in the tap water.

I'm trying to understand all this chemistry stuff and so on. My dilema now is that my ph is at 8+ and kh at 1. I am using sera kh/ph + to raise the kh, but this also raises the ph? from what I have read sothat is not really going to help my cause of matching the tank ph of 6.8-7 and kh of 4.

I have read another post in regards to the relationship between seachems acid & alkaline buffers. This has sort of confused me more. From what I understand there is a relationship between ph and kh and if you lower the ph you lower the kh? So how can I lower the ph of the tap water, but raise the kh at the same time so that I can get a ph of 6.8-7 and a kh of 4. Are these the ideal values for a heavily planted discus tank anyway? This is what my lfs told me to work to.

Is it going to be easier to adjust the values of ro water instead of using so many products to adjust my tap water. I know the cost of ro unit may be high, but if I have to continually buy products like phosguard, buffers etc to adjust the tap water is the ro way going to be more cost effective and easier in the long run?

I haven't really researched much on the ro method but when I asked my lfs they said its better just to play with my tap water. From what I have seen on the seachem site, if I used the ro unit and used there equilibrium? that is all that is needed to be done to the water so that it can go in the tank?

Your advice would be greatly appreciated.

Steve.

[ILLUSN]

alkaline buffer will make your ph higher, what you want is seachem acid buffer it contains no phosphate.

if you raise kh, you raise ph, what you want to do is lower your ph and kh, the best thing for this is HCL sold as concrete cleaner or acid buffer.

if you have a ph controler, it will keep the ph (and theoreticly the co2) constant, you dont have to worry about it.

an ro unit will fix all your problems, its just it takes 100L of tap water to make 8-2L of ro water, if your doing decent changes the cost of water adds up.

[swigo]

Thanks Illusn.

I've just ordered my acid buffer from ASA. So if I lower my ph down to 6.8-7 is the kh important as well? or do I just make sure the ph is the same as the tank and that will then do?

[ILLUSN]

just make your ph the same, all kh is, is an indicater of stability, if your changing your water regularly it wont matter at all.

[swigo]

Thanks for the feedback.