ph and hardness keep changing

[as]

Hi all,

I have had the tank running now for a week and a half, and I have been regularly testing the water but the readings, particularly ph and the hardness, have been continuously changing.

It is a 3ft tank, eco complete substrate, 1 piece of driftwood that has been in various tanks for a few years, a bunch of swords and a few other plants, reasonably well planted. Lighting is 2 3ft t5 HO's, and a diy co2 running into my canister filter.

My question is since setup, the ph has first dropped from an initial 7.4, down to 6.8 the next day, then a gradual increase increase from then on back up to now 7.4 again.

The hardness started out at gh 100 and kh 60, and that has kept increasing to now it reads gh 180 and kh 110.

All I would like to know is if this is normal with a new tank? All the other tests have been behaving as normal, as in ammonia and nitrite.

Or should I be looking further for another cause of these fluctuations?

There is currently no fish in the tank, and wont be for a while, and I want to get this right before adding anything!

Thanks everyone,

[DIY]

Assuming your test kits etc are ok, its definately not normal,

Something is increasing the GH and KH, and the rising KH expains the rising pH.

Do you have anything like crushed coral or crushed marble in the filter? Have you added anything to the water since setup? Is there any rocks in the tank? Apart from the eco-complete is anything else in the substrate?

[as]

yeah I did not think it is normal. In the filter is only some white cylinder things, cant remember what they are called, but it is not coral or marble or anything like that. They some sort of bio medium though and seems like a kind of porcelain-ish material.

Nothing else has been added, there are no rocks, nothing else, maybe a very small amount of leftover aquarium gravel, just the driftwood and plants and eco complete. I assume the test kit is ok as I only bought it last week from a sponsor.

So it is possible that the bio stuff in the filter is affecting the water?
What does everyone else use as their filter mediums?
I intend to purchase a new good quality canister in the near future, but this will have to do for the time being.

[DIY]

sounds like you're describing ceramic noodles and they are fine to use, they don't leach anything.. I use them in a couple of my tanks with no problem.

There has to be something.. GH and KH don't climb on thier own..

I'm not familiar with eco-complete... I wonder if that has a settling in period where it leaches for a while? wouldn't have thought so...

[as]

yep noodles, that is what they are.

I am not sure about eco complete, this is the first time I have used these types of substrates. It has me rather confused, hopefully someone has had a similar problem and can help out!

Regardless the plants seem to be coping so far, but I am a little worried about them if the water continues to change like this. I would imagine plants do like certain ph ranges etc the same as fish.

Thanks for your help so far DIY, hopefully soon we will work this one out!

[pink66]

when it comes to eco-complete the only one to call is Illusn.. He should be able to assist with any changes it may cause in a new set up..

hope this helps

[as]

Thanks pink, Illusn has been helpful so far with my questions, and also suggested the eco complete.

[Kokoro]

I've been having the same problem in my newest tank. I also have eco complete, and am certain that this is the problem. If you look closely, there are pieces of shell grit mixed through the substrate (and a few whole shells). In my case, I'm using filter media that was left over from setting up my last tank, which has never had these problems, and the only other thing in there is the eco complete.

I find this a bit disappointing as I was lead to believe that eco complete would not buffer the water

[ILLUSN]

what version of eco are you using? there are 3 types, the old dry type (no blacwater extract, no bacteria) the "Live" version (contains a satchel of Blackwater extract and bio bacteria) and an african version (contains coral and shells in addition to substrate).

the version in my tank has no shells at all, just some chunks of what looks like carbon (burnt wood) and some VERY finely ground pummice i think.

is it possible to get a photo of it in your tanks. I've got 9 bags of it in my 6x2x2 and have had no buffering of ph (I added 2 bags of onyx sand by seachem to get my Kh up for my red swords even at best after 2 weeks with no water change my ph increases from 5.0-5.9 which is a VERY slow leach).

It is normal for a new tank to undergo some pH (and there fore kH) swings, also the water from your tap is usually unstable and needs a good 48-72hrs to stabalise. best bet would be to fill a bucket with tap water, add an airstone and let it stand for 3 days then measure your pH, gH and kH and you'll have a baseline to work from.

the only problem i had with Eco was it turned my tank peasoup green while i was away on my honeymoon, but then again with 400W of light and very few plants i can hardly blame the substrate for that. as stated after 2 weeks away the pH had increased by 0.9.

[as]

I have used the live version.

It may very well be the tap water here, I will try out the bucket for 3 days I think and see what happens there.

Camera is out of action atm, so no can do pics.

Thanks

[ILLUSN]

No worries, just seems a little strange to have shells in it.

[as]

I don't think there is any shell in the stuff I have. There are some things that sort of look like it but I doubt it is.

Heading down to the lfs this morning to pick up a few bits to set up a bucket like suggested. I think this is a good idea to get a starting point for the water here and then see if there is a link to that for my problem.

[as]

things have settled down in the tank now, and I have had the bucket (actually a 75 litre plastic bin) running with an airstone in it to compare.

Both have stabilized and have had the same readings for a few days.

The tank is now at

ph - 7.4
gh - 120
kh - 90
amm. - 0
nit - 0

and the bin is

ph - 7.6
gh - 80
kh - 50
amm - 0
nit - 0.3

The ammonia level is so low I am not sure if it is actually 0 or reading a minute amount in the bucket.

From what I have been reading these results are ok providing they remain consistent, which has been the case for the past 5 days, with wc in the tank every few days.

I have been doing around 20% wc every 3 days, but I have not been paying too much attention to equalizing the water quality. I would imagine this will be necessary to do, especially when there are a few inhabitants to think of besides the plants.

I need to pick up a new heater for the bin, then I will maintain the water temp the same as the tank, and with the other test results, what are some common methods to bring the new water in line with the tank water?

I have read about the avoidance of using chemicles in the tank, but would they be suitable for the bin prior to adding to the tank?

Thanks

[ILLUSN]

That sounds much better.

add your chems to the bin before it enters the tank (dechlor etc etc etc)

those resulsts are fine and more than near enough for WC.

[as]

Thanks Illusn, it is a relief to have things settling down. I guess it must be related to all being a fresh setup that caused the initial problem.

Good to hear I am on the right track!

[as]

I renewed my diy co2 reactor ingredients on wednesday, and look out, the ph is back down to 6.8 tonight.

Obviously this is the culprit with regards to my ph problems. I suppose this is a problem with a small tank and an unmetered addition of co2.

Looks like there is going to be some upgrades in this area very soon. I see most go for the ph controller in conjunction with the bottled co2 setup. Is this the recommended way to go for this tank?

If so, what items do I need to set this up properly, as I would like to only do this once!

Thanks all,

[ILLUSN]

ok to do it once and do it properly is NOT to do it cheep!

get yourself a good sized bottle, IMO anything less than 2kg is a waste of time ASA have a heap of good ones available
http://www.aquariumsuppliesaustralia.com.au/store/cart.php?m=product_list&c=126.

if you want to go automatic get a reg with a GERMAN solenoid on it, not a cheep china knock off. the brand is up to you, i like the JBL reg and solenoid as I've never had a problem with it, my milwalkee has given me trouble when water got in and the piston got stuck in the off position ( budget $250-$400).

PH controler, DO NOT BUY A CHEEPIE OFF EBAY!!!! I did and the probe is USELESS, I believe that Ben at AOA has a decent one at not too bad a price, even if it isn't the best at least Ben will look after you if anything goes wrong (budget $250 - $400).

http://www.aquariumproducts.com.au/catalogue_products.php?prodID=3481&catID=58

get some decent CO2 tubing, you can get this off ebay. or here
http://www.aquariumproducts.com.au/catalogue_products.php?prodID=4146&catID=58

with your size tank a simple glass diffuser (again ebay, or ASA or AOA if you want local) will do the job nicely.
http://www.aquariumproducts.com.au/catalogue_products.php?prodID=3833&catID=58

http://www.aquariumsuppliesaustralia.com.au/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=3068



that all you need.

[as]

Thanks Illusn, looks like I have some budgeting to do!

Having the setup I have now I am just making things difficult for myself, and the tank is something that I really want to enjoy! I will do some research now and let you know what I end up with.

I figured that this was going to be a reasonably expensive exercise, but I have learnt to do it right the first time saves you a lot of time and money in the long run.

I suppose fish are even further away for this tank now, at least the plants look good in there by themselves!

[as]

To cut down some of the initial costs, could I use a bubble counter and regular water testing to replace the controller?

It would make it all happen quicker if this would work sufficiently and then add the controller at a later date. Does this work?

[ILLUSN]

sure you can, i only run a ph controler on 1 of my 5 co2 tanks, you dont need it, just set your bubble rate at around 2bps and move it up or down from there. get a co2 perma test thingy, its only a rough guide, but when mine changes from a yellow green to a blue green i up the bps a little.