Do apisto species interbreed?

[DiscusEden]

Do they?

I get that putting aggazis & aggazi double reds together, they could, but what about, say, aggazi double reds & trifasciatums?

Just thinking about putting some in the community tank, then pulling out pairs to put in their own tanks on occasion to breed them - but I'm not sure I'd be able to identify females of the correct species if the fish aren't staying in the correct pairs. It would give me more space to get more species. Getting a little addicted now.

Thanks guys!

[flaggy]

Since the aggies and trifaciata are different species, then they shouldn't interbreed. However, there are suspected hybrids such as the Apistogramma sp. steel-blue ...

Even though it may not be obvious, it should be able to differentiate between females of different species. Even if you can't, the males certainly can, so perhaps you can observing who is playing with whom and then catch the female first, then the corresponding male after that.

I've had much more luck with apistos in species tanks than in the community tank which I use for widows and widowers. But the other option is to let them breed in the community tank (or should I say, it may not possible to stop them breeding), and then carefully removing the cave with wigglers and mum.

[DiscusEden]

Thanks flaggy, that's just what I was hoping for!

I've just got a single trifasciatum male in the 6 ft at the moment, until I can get a female. Then, unless I get something more interesting that's looking nearly ready to breed, the double reds will go in the 6ft & the trifasc in the 80L I think.

How many pairs do you think could go in the 6ft without causing territiorial problems?

[Bubbles]

Hey DiscusEden,

Depending on how you have your tank set up. If it has hiding places & your female ratio to each apisto is greater than the male you should be able to keep quite a few pairs - in saying that though - there will always be a dominant male in the tank regardless of how many pairs you keep. Provide them with caves & places to get away & you should not have a problem.

Cheers,

Karen

[Th0mas]

Yes - they do interbreed.

I'm having this happening in one of the spare holding tank. Where I have a lone veijita female with two borelli males (couldn't find proper partners for them and there's no spare tank to keep them separate). The bugger bred in there, and of course all wiggler do not survive out of that tank.

So given they're close enough, they will cross. I really doubt of any chance agassizi will cross trifasciata.

[DiscusEden]

Thanks guys!

I'm not too worried about creating new hybrid fish, since they're in with the discus in the community tank, more about being able to identify the correct pairs when I do go to put them in breeding tanks. I think any 2 headed fry would be discus dinner in there anyway.

Any idea how many quite a few is? It sounds promising! It's a 540L tank, 6ft x 20"deep x 2ft high, with discus & some others. I can keep an eye on the bioload, but it's more the competition for space I'm concerned about.

I've started thinking about getting some shelves for smaller tanks to keep them seperate - is there a rule of thumb about what size tanks to use for breeding them? What size are you using?

Sorry about all the questions, and thankyou for your advice!

[Bubbles]

Hey DiscusEden,

Asking questions is good - we all have to start from somewhere when we go with something different.

I have 6 - 1 x 1 aquaone tanks for breeding in a display set-up & I can only have one breeding pair per that tank size. It all depends on what size tanks you have the room for. If breeding fish you will also need a growout tank for the fry if you decide to run small breeding tanks as once bred & they are free swimming fry they need to be fed at minimum 3 times a day & that is a lot of food going into a small tank plus the parents - means lots of water changes. We have a 4x2x18 divided into 4 sections for our grow-out tank with a bio bag in the external canister filter so we can afford to feed them as many times as we want without worrying too much about the waste.
ThOmas has numerous tank sizes with shelving, he would be a good person to talk to on what the best set up would be.

As for how many pairs of apisto's in the community tank all depends on how many fish you currently have in that tank. If you do get apisto's breeding in that tank they will be very teritorial & need their space, some apisto girls can be quite aggresive & some have even been known to kill other fish while protecting the eggs.

An example with our Ap.sp pebas - when they were in the community tank not too long ago, the pair chose a corner of the tank where she decided the half pot was a good spawn site, but the pair decided that at least one foot of the tank was their territory & they guarded that foot of tank & would attack any fish that came within that foot, my Geos did not know what was going on as they would normally have free range of the tank.

Good luck with your adventure, once you start you can't stop - it's an apisto addiction.

Cheers,
Karen aka bubbles.

BTW: If you do end up having fish breeding in your community tank, you could use an egg tumbler, that way you would not have to worry about them getting eaten either as egg form or free swimmers.

[Th0mas]

IMO, I think 1 ft cube is absolute minimal - and depending on species some may not even feel comfortable to spawn in that size (eg macmasteri).

My general preference is 40cmx30cmx30cm. Just a bit bigger than the cube, this also allows more volume for fry to a decent size.

And while we're on the topic of interbreeding - that veijita has spawned with the borelli again....

[zar]

Th0mas which species would be ok to keep or breed in a 1 ft cube?
Are all commonly available apistos actually cave spawners?

[Bubbles]

And while we're on the topic of interbreeding - that veijita has spawned with the borelli again....

Those two are a worry ThOmas, what are you going to do - although they would turn out to be an interesting looking fish if they came out normal!!!!

[Th0mas]

Nah - I'm not interested in raising them for the sake of finding out what they looked like. Just too much trouble and I've already got my hands tight already.

Zar,

All apistos I've had are cave spawner (and also trained my pair of German Ram to spawn in cave as well).

A 1ft cube is fine for the smaller species - agassizi, elizabethae, iniridae, hongsloi, etc. I would give the bigger fish a bigger tank (eg baenschi, macmasteri, gibbicep, cacatoides, etc(.

And of course these 1 ft tank would have as little furniture as possible to give them more room to move.

[Bubbles]

Zar,

Thomas is absolutely correct, our 30x30x30 cubes only have one pot with a little java moss - thats it.

This could be one reason we keep having problems with the Baenschi not spawning, the other being they are old adult pairs.

We have moved a pair into a bigger tank & have found it has made little difference.

The females go into their breeding colours, they prep the spawn site & move the Java moss around into position & this can go on for a couple of weeks & then it goes no further than that & eventually she goes back to her normal colour. Both pairs are the same, it's really frustrating. We have even swapped males over & they would go through the same process & then "nothing".

[amazon dee]

Hi there bubbles and all you appisto lovers out there.
Its dee back again with what misgt be a silly question.

What is an egg tumber Bubbles?

By the way Bubbles I set up that quaranteen tank Thomas said to have and just as Ph levels and nitrates were levelling guess what the local pet shop got in.
Double reds!

The shop tanks are a bit grubby and they only ever get in the goldfish and general type of fish and occasional half dozen discus.
I have been at him for 18mths to get some appistos.

I got 2 males and 2 females (all they had). They were fairly stressed yesterday but are showing off today. One male is very dark, does that mean he is still stressed?

happy dee :D

[Bubbles]

Great news for you Dee with the Aggie double reds.

An Egg Tumbler is a homemade device used for placing eggs in & raising the fry till free swimming or some people like to keep them in there for a little longer. They are used mainly cause some females eat their eggs or another reason is that some fish do not make good parents & some get better numbers of fry in the tumbler.

If you do a google search you will find a lot of good websites that have great info & DIY articles.

As for the dark colour of your male aggie, he is probably a little stressed, give him a few day's to get adjusted to his new home.

Good luck with your new apisto's - "The fun begins"

[amazon dee]

Thanks for info will goggle later.

The male is better today, still not the happiest but the little tank took a bit to settle. I dont think the environment was fuully working when I got the appistos and the nitrites and nitrates skyrocketed.
Did water changes every day.
Posted help.

Adding the extra filter was what finally worked. (after nitrate remover, nitraban, stress zyme, 50%water changes, swapping fuuly working noodles and filter media from lge tank.)

Boy! As you say (quite sarcastically) "the fun begins"

[DiscusEden]

Great info guys!

This might be like asking you to list all the names in the phone book, but whick are the apistos that need a bigger tank? If I went with 40x30x30 ('cos I'm getting ideas now), would that be big enough for any of them?

Is the tank size based on the adult size of the fish (if so, how big does the species have to be to warrant a larger tank), or are there other factors, such as aggressiveness?

Thanks again for tolerating all of the questions - great discussion, I'm learning heaps, thankyou!

[Bubbles]

Hey DiscusEden,

Thomas's tank sizes start at 40x30x30 as this size will be suitable for Sub-adult to Adult breeding pair of apisto's.

My 30x30x30 tanks are suitable for most apisto's & have never really had any problems because of the size, I just moved a pair of Baenschi back into this size tank as they seem to be more at home there than in my 2x2x18, boiled up some peat moss last night to extract liquid & add to the Baenschi tank & so far we have had a really good response from them as all our other tanks have a stocking of the Ehiem Peat Pellets in them & the water is "white water" the Baenschi prefer the peat/Black water much better.

Smaller dwarfs eg: Ap.sp pebas, Ap.Borelli, Ap.pandurini - ect...are ok in the 30x30x30 but pairs like the Ap.cacatuoides, Ap.hongsloi, Ap.macmasteri, Ap.baenschi ect.....Can grow to around 8-10cm compared to Ap.sp pebas grow to around 6cm, Ap.Hongsloi males get to around 8cm, all females are smaller than their males, the Ap.Hongsloi female grows to 5cm.

I hope this helps you a little, it all depends on what you want to keep, a 40x30x30 would be sufficient for keeping an adult pair of any apisto's.

Keep us informed as to what you decide to do.

[Bubbles]

And while we're on the topic of interbreeding - that veijita has spawned with the borelli again....

OMG :shock: ThOmas you put a spell on us with interbreeding.

Our Male Ap.gephyra & our Ap.agassizii tefe female have spawned :shock: :shock: :shock:

We are in the process of cleaning some of the tanks & we are waiting on our girl Ap.gephyra, while cleaning tanks we put them into a section of our grow-out tanks & the dam things bred :oops:

Oh...what to do!!!!!!

[fishgeek]

i tend to suggest a 2ft tank as the smallest

nijenssi family fish in a small tank unless a bonded pair are likely to kill each other, thats more to do with attitude than size
in that group i would definitely include panduro if that is what is meant by pandurini, apologies if i have misunderstood

many of the other groups settle more easily

tank scape, fish inidvidual personality and keepers experience and time available to watch fish all makes a difference

maybe have a couple of larger tanks, new fish in there, once settled and happy/calm then move them to smaller tanks

obviously you will see many city dwellers keeping fish in smaller tanks very succesfully
if space isnt limited to you then why limit it to the fish

andrew

[amazon dee]

My new double reds are settling fine, water now normal.
Thanks to all those who helped especially Bubbles.

Will one male appisto (dbl red) dominate all females and has it been known for a male to send another to "coventry" so to speak?

One male is up behind the heater near the surface and as soon as he comes down or moves the other male sends him back up there again.
Even the females dont like him.

Could he have BO?

[gingerbeer01]

For small tank breeding what I do is get the male in and out quick.

I use a fish net breeder to keep the male in her face while protected from her till I am ready. Then let him go for about 1 day. Then back into the net he goes. He hence becomes a dither fish too.

If i leave the boy in there and miss the spawning it is quite likely that he will end up out of the tank at her choosing.

[Th0mas]

Hi Steve,

How big are your tanks? I've not had any male chased out of the tank for a fair while now, and in fact I left him with the female (unless he's a bad daddy).

[Th0mas]

i tend to suggest a 2ft tank as the smallest

nijenssi family fish in a small tank unless a bonded pair are likely to kill each other, thats more to do with attitude than size
in that group i would definitely include panduro if that is what is meant by pandurini, apologies if i have misunderstood

many of the other groups settle more easily

tank scape, fish inidvidual personality and keepers experience and time available to watch fish all makes a difference

maybe have a couple of larger tanks, new fish in there, once settled and happy/calm then move them to smaller tanks

obviously you will see many city dwellers keeping fish in smaller tanks very succesfully
if space isnt limited to you then why limit it to the fish

andrew

Andrew,

I won't dispute with you on the tank size, and you're absolutely correct that fish's characteristic and keeper's experience does make the different.

I don't have much room at my home, hence I'll try to fit the less demanding species in smaller tanks. For fish from the nijsseni group, they don't go into anything smaller than a 40cm tank.

And I do keep an eye out for trouble if I know the tank size is small and the pair hasn't bond.

However I tend to have the 1ft cube as quarantine setup, but the bugger got comfortable with them too quickly and spawned in there before I had the chance to move them along to bigger home (this includes elizabethae, iniridae and ram). My elizabethae are still in the 1ft cube with their kids - they love the place and the male will come to the front and chase me off if I gets too close looking at them.

Thomas.

[Bubbles]

I do agree with most of what's been said, it all boils down to the individual fish & what works for that individual fish, it's either happy or not & you would soon realize when it's not.

The cube tanks have worked well for me & have been "lucky" with the pairs chosen & pairs purchased by us and a lot of help & support & choosing from ThOmas at his LFS & his own personal breeding pairs he raised himself.

We keep a close eye on the happiness of our fish, do weekly water changes & make them as homely as possible, give them good food & a 48hr aged water change every week. We provide the necessary enviroment for them to spawn in & we generally have happy fish - in saying that we have met with some challenges with some of our apisto's & of course the ups & downs & losses that we all have experienced.

Our cube tanks are painted black at the back & each side of the tank is dark as it is met with a wall on each side seperating one tank to another so as they do not see each other, thus providing privacy & security.

The only problem we have encounted with some of the apisto's we have had are that some are social creatures & love the company of different speicies within a community set-up it seems to spur them on to breed.

So I agree with both ThOmas & Andrew, it all depends on the individual fish, experience of the keeper & for me - "without meaning to sound dirty" it's not the size that counts it's what you do with it.

[gingerbeer01]

Thomas,

Currently I have in my breeding rack - 2 14 inchers and 2 2 footers.

The 14 inche tanks are good for small species - borelie. Also good for a lone female if I seperate.

currently I have the regani (almost definitely masken) in the 14 inche tanks - male in one fmelae with fry in the other. They can see each other so that keeps her busy with the fry.

Panduro in one of the two footers - need to put a guppy in there I think to give them something to chase.

I also have my 6 footer that is the store house.

[Robdog]

This was one of my setups that I had going last year which now belongs to Thomas. They were all quite good breeding tanks for their size but I found that as soon as the eggs were laid they were all about 6 inches too short. Too much tension in such a small space.
And whoever from Aquaone said that those fliptop fronts were for easy access, must've had midget hands! :roll:
In all I had spawns from baenschi, cacatouides double reds and orange flash, multiple panduro's (which really highlighted that the tanks were too small) and Dicrossus filamentosa in those tanks.
I also found that having them next to each other, about a 1ft or so apart helped keep the males busy when there was a spawn. They could still see the next bloke in the next tank and it would keep him on his guard and out of the females nest.
I loved those little tanks and I'd do it all again in a heartbeat :cry: :cry: *sniff*

[Bubbles]

Hey Robdog,

I agree with those fliptops, before we got the cabinet made we made sure that when measuring up we allowed enough room for the lids to fully extend up, it was a bit of a pain in the butt though cause we allowed the room above each tank (3 tanks high each side) it ended up nearly to the roof with just enough room on top for the industrial pump, we use a step ladder to reach the second & third tanks when feeding & water changes.

I love our tanks & our fish are happy, we made some egg tumblers on the weekend, that was fun & great to have for those naughty little egg eaters.