Very Sick Discus, may not last the night

[nathanreed]

Hi All,
We are in need of some serious help.

All of our 6 discus are showing signs of stress, there eyes have gone misty with a white spot, and one of our snake skin disucs is looking very bad. It has gone very dark, is scratching on plants and the gravel, not hiding away. The fish has a film of grey/white mucus over the entire body. She is holding her fin against her body. both top and bottom fins are flat too. We have recently had some very hot weather, and the tank hit 33 degrees C.

We have just treated for gil flukes, done 1 50% water changes in the past coulple of days and will do another 25% tonight.

Neons are looking ragged and thin, two have died and we have lost our clown loach (3inches)

tank is 215L (55 gallons) discus are 16 months old,
Ehiem 2028 pro 2,
4x 39w t5
Air bubbler now on 24x7
undergravel heating,
Nitrate and Nitrite = 0,
phosphate 1.0
Amonia = 0
Temp is now 31.5 Deg C
PH 6.8
dKH 4
tank age 14 months
PH is CO2 Controlled via meter/probe

Discus are still eating, Two days ago this discus was shivering and swiming on the 45 deg angle as if breeding.

[nathanreed]

All of the snails that usually only come out at night at now on the surface of the gravel and they are climbing the glass during the day.

Our other two clown loaches are unaffected, as are our octos, and siamese algae eaters, other than they appear a little lothargic.

[nathanreed]

last one I promise.

[Merrilyn]

Nathan, I think it's a water problem. In this case, I think it's lack of oxygen rather than anything else more sinister.

Warm water holds way less oxygen than cooler water, so I'm going to suggest you add another airstone, and turn it up full blast, remove the C02 for the moment, add carbon to your filter, and do another large (50%) waterchange.

Get some plain sea salt or cooking salt, and add one heap teaspoon per 40 litres of water. Your plants won't like it much, but your fish will be able to breathe easier.

The snails are coming to the surface for oxygen, but if you find any dead ones, remove them immediately.

Hope that helps, keep us posted.

[nathanreed]

Thank you very much for your advice. I will turn off the CO2 straight away and increase the oxygen and add salt.
Do you think they have the Ich as they are rubbing against the driftwood and plants?
I'll let you know how it goes, thanks again for your post!

[JJ1]

I posted the other day coz our discus were gasping at the top of the tank and I thought they were for it! Then we did a 60% water change and added an airstone and this morning less than 24 hours no lie they are fantastic. I would do water change clean filters add some stress zyme and maybe some medication for the fungus on the eye?
Good luck

[ellwa]

I've had similar things when my CO2 has gone haywire.

did a 60ish% water change, added an extra air stone and a sponge filter, and a MASSIVE dose of prime, and within a few hours they started coming good again.

I lost a few tetras in the process, but you get that.

I don't know if maybe the drop of a few degrees in the overall water temp would have had any effect, but temp went from ~31.5 to about 26.5 in about an hour, with the removal and addition of new water.

HTH

good luck.

[nathanreed]

Thankyou all,
We never thought of the oxygen being a problem, but after reading your replies it may very well be this.

Our plants gradually stopped producing oxygen about 2-3 weeks ago. Not sure why, we are using Dupla 24, and Dupla Tabs with each water change. Also have Dupla Laterite in the bottom 1/3 of the substrate, perhaps the laterite needs a recharge...its at about 9-10 months old. T5's are only 4 months old. (3 lifeglo, 1 powerglo) - back to the real issue at hand...

Our PH is climbing without the CO2, its now at 7.13, we are slowly adding 10L of water at 6.4 to try rectify the the pH. We have our bubbler flat out, and the Eheim running at full speed just above the surface.

We are using liquid PH Down (phosphate free).

We did notice (just visable on the zoomed image) there are 3 small sores on the Snakeskin discus any Ideas?

Thanks again, will keep you posted.

More detials on our tank can be viewed in our discus diary/blog
http://www.mydiscus.blogspot.com/

[nathanreed]

OK ph this morning had hit 7.4 so we have reconnected the CO2 to prevent it climbing today. Droped it back to 6.94 with API pH liquid down.

Disucs is alive, just.

I forgot to mention, that yesterday when the loach died, it left behind some nasty white mucus under the carcas. ANd then within the mucus there was a worm! we did feed the discus bloodworm yesterday so it may have been a left over one... but im not sure.

[nathanreed]

Disease is getting worse in other discus.

2 now black covered with white mucus. Leaving trails of mucus.
almost looks like cobwebs over the fish.

Lost: 2nd clown loach, Glass Catfish, 4th neon. No Discus fatalities yet.

Been to specialist Aquarium shop.
Now Treating with Myxazin 7.25mls every 12 hours. Possible whitespot/Ich.
Also treating with broadspectrum antibiotics in tablet form desolved - ever 24 hours for 5 days.

Recommended to do no more water changes
Recommended to remove plants or they would die

CO2 is back on to regulate PH as recomened.
Bubbler is on Hi,
Ehiem 2028 flat out, no carbon :cry:

bye bye months of work...

[Merrilyn]

I think your black gravel is the cause of your rising pH, but even so, that shouldn't cause any major problems. Nothing like this anyway.

I'm beginning to think you may have discus plague.

Have you recently added any new fish, or even any new plants. Done anything different to your tank in the last couple of weeks.

I read your blog, and you seem to be doing everything perfect. Our water in Melbourne is pretty good at the moment, despite the drought, so I can't really put my finger on a cause.

It sounds like you went to Oakleigh, but I don't really agree with Mac on the no water change bit. If the slime coating is coming off in sheets, it really needs to be removed from the water.

If you're using tetracycline, it will wipe out your bio filter and you'll need to recycle your tank after treatment. If it's Metro, that's safe for your bio filter, but please check the stickys in the Illness and Medications forum for the latest dosage rate. It's much higher than was originally prescribed.

We've had two vets confirm this latest dosage, one is a dedicated fish specialist, and the other vet a hobbiest who confirmed it was written up in the latest veterinary journal.

Please remember to keep the tank lights off if using Metro. It's affected by light

So sorry for your troubles. Your tank was magnificent, but I'm sure it will be again.

[nathanreed]

Dear Marilyn,
Thank you kindly for all your help. We lost our first discus last night. Our snake skin one, we also lost an octo and 3 more neons.

Hmm perhaps we should switch to Metro? try treat for discus disease. Any thoughts? From what Ive read it looks like its perscription only. From this forum post, what we have certainly looks and sounds like discus disease. From the post it reads that Tetracycline should help aswell, which we are allready treating them with.

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14779&highlight=
Same patchy appearance.


This morning we did a 60% water change. Then put them through there second dose. Thank you for your tips on the dosage, I will have an in-depth read through them today. We are using: Waterlife Myxazin and Aquari Cycline Tablets. - (Aquari-Cycline Tablets are a broad spectrum antibiotic for the treatment of diseases in ornamental fresh and saltwater fish caused by Tetracycline sensitive organisms) - from website

Our Light are off, only moonlights are comming on at the moment (early am, and 1hr after ligths out). The only tank change was 3 weeks ago, we refilled the CO2 and in the morning, all fish were gasping. So we Reduced the bubbles per minute in the co2 and added a bubbler between midnight and 7am.

The only other thing that I think may have triggered the problem was during the hot weather, we added about 40L of cold water. Becuase the tank had heated up to 33 degrees. This feels like what caused the problem. Some forums mention that ich can be caused by this. Do you think the product Myxazin will fix ich?

After removing the dead discus, all mucus had gone, even the eye looked a little better. But the rest of the discus look really bad. I will post the exact products we are using to medicate when I get home.

We added the blix about 1-2 months ago, and also two more clown loaches about 6 weeks ago. we also added fine leaf ludweiga a few weeks ago.

Thank you again,
Amy and Nathan

[nathanreed]

Lost another discus today, this one jumped....

We lost our largest discus today, it jumped from the tank and we found it when we got home from work.

Last night we dosed with the second course of Aquari-cycline, and I think thats enough. We are really sad to see our best discus go, considering he looked the best of the lot.

We are now doing a 80% water changes, morning and night. but tonight, after finding the latest casualty, we decided not to redose tonight. Give the fish a break for a day or two.

After putting them in clean, aged water, ph 6.8 with some stress zime a couple of hours later, the worst one, that was lying on its side is now upright. Still quite dark in colour. The other three survivors look much better, all darkness has gone, they look happier out of the meds.

One of our fish, near its side fin, looks like it has gone white, almost as if it had a gash.

[Merrilyn]

Sorry to hear you lost another one. Discus will jump, especially under stress, that's why I have cover glass on all my tanks.

I reall can't see any problems with your management of your tank. I would have thought, that if another fish was going to bring a disease into the tank, it would have happened soon after introduction. As it's been 6 weeks since you last introduced new fish, I doubt it's been that.

Could have been the introduction of new plants two weeks ago, but even that seems a long shot.

We may never know what caused the problem. Even the slight drop in water temp is unlikely to cause problems. We drop temps slightly to induce spawning behaviour. It's unlikely to cause whitespot unless the temp dropped 5 or more degrees.

I think you've taken the right treatment path. No more meds at this stage, just keep the water very very clean and allow the fish's natural immunity to take over.

Very often, if we support the fish with the best water conditions possible, they will recover quite quickly from what seems like a terrible disease.

Good luck with your remaining fish. I hope they continue to improve.

Remember that the tetracycline will have wiped out your bio filtration, so you'll have to recycle your tank. The quickest way to do that, is to get some used filter medium from the tank of a friend (so long as his fish are healthy) and put it in your clean filter.

The small colony of bacteria you've transferred via the used media, will quickly make a home in your filter, so the tank will cycle much sooner. Just watch your ammonia and nitrite levels for the first couple of weeks, and be prepared to do a water change if the levels rise.

[samir]

it jumped because of the tetracycline, they should put a warning on the bottle. metro would have been a better option.

[nathanreed]

Thanks for the warning about the Tetracycline, we will now cover the tank with glass.
Another discus was dead in the morning, only 3 left. Have attached some photos of the dead discus, a blue diamond
Currently trying to get hold of some metro as it seems this is the better option.

[Merrilyn]

See all the little holes around the mouth and gill plates of the fish, that's an external symptom of Hole in the Head or Head and Lateral Line Erosion, which usually goes hand in hand with an internal parasite problem commonly called Hexemita.

Did you notice if the fish had white jelly like droppings?

Metro is the drug of choice at this stage, but you will need to see your local vet, as it's prescription only medication. Take the dead fish with you (frozen if necessary) so your vet can see the problem.

Hole in the head isn't usually fatal, but the disease that goes with it, can cause deaths.

Check out the Illness and Medications forum for the correct dosage for Metro.

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2475

[nathanreed]

Thanks for the tips on diagnosing Hole in the Head. To be honest I think our discus have always had these holes and I just thought that was normal (excuse my ignorance!). They don't (or have never had) have any white jelly like faeces so perhaps it is not the full blown version of the disease yet? Perhaps it has flared up some with the stress of having discus plague?
We have managed to get hold of some metro and will dose them as you have reccommended. Thanks for the tips on dosage, we read a lot of info saying to dose at 250mg/40L which I assume is the old thinking on the dosage of metro. We were only able to get hold of 200mg metro tablets but will dose at 200mg/9L. Hopefully this will save the last few.
Do you know if hole in the head is tranferable to other species or is it just a discus disease?
Thanks again for your help!

[Th0mas]

Hi Merrilyn,

I tend not to agree it's hexemita, as most problem I've experienced with hexemita will result with extremely thin fish (especially the belly area) before they died (with discus and apistogramma). The photos showing fish that have nice fat belly, hence I don't think it's hexemita.

Those holes in the photo above could be scar from the fish's infection at it's younger age (and has been cured).

[Merrilyn]

Must admit, I'm pretty well stumped on this one Thomas. I agree that the scars are incidental to the main problem.

Got any ideas what it might be?

Samir, Illusn, Andrew, would like to hear your thoughts too.

[ILLUSN]

I've been quiet so far cause Merrilyn has beet me to every post :)

to be honest the eye looks too big and the face too thin for me to believe that that fish in the photo was ever healthy.

the fact that other fish in the tank, ottos and neons are going belly up make me think that it isn't hex, however the tetracycline should have taken care of everything else, could be that the filter has had it and now the whole tank is poisined with NH3/Nh4 % NO3.

at this stage my advice would be to transfer all the fish to a big bucket with an airstone and heater , strip the entire tank, no substrate at all, wash the tank with a STRONG salt sotution (3 or 4 tablespoons/gal), rinse it well and re fill to half way with water, get all the gear running again, get it up to temp and start metro treatment, with daily 90% changes and 2 tsp of salt/gal (1 tsp/2L),

set the temp at 30c and add as many airstones as you can.

the other advice would be to get a 2 foot hospital tank and throw our discus in there for treatment, clean and sterilize your existing tank( a table spoon of pp/100L works well) destroy all your other fish stock so as not to re infect the discus, i know both serarios are extreme but that what i'd do.

[nathanreed]

Thanks for you input Illusn,
we put the discus into a hospital tank 24hours ago and began metro treatment. Unfortunately the tap water in Adelaide has an ammonia level of 1 so we are behind with water quality before we start. The fish are not looking good I think it may be too late. They are drifting around the tank and have a patchy green appearance. They also appear to have finrot so I guess they are suffering from multiple diseases at this stage. Nitrate and nitrite are zero.
I will let you know what happens but I don't have too much hope for them any more :cry:

[Greggy]

How have you been dealing with the NH3 in your tapwater? Are you using plenty of Prime and/or keeping the pH consistently below 7.0?

I tend to agree with ILLUSN as it looks & sounds like a case of Ammonia (NH3) poisoning, and unless you move all of your fish to a tank with zero NH3 and NO2 you are going to lose all of them... bet the house on that.

Personally I'd take them to your LFS and ask if they can 'look after' them in a spare tank (or a bucket if need be) with an air stone and ask them to change the water twice or more per day.

Regards,

Greggy

[nathanreed]

We have the pH at 6.5, controlled with CO2, we have been using API tap water conditioner, doing water changes twice daily with aged water from a bucket.

[ILLUSN]

If you can filter your aged water through zeolite, it will remove the ammonia from your tap water, I've never used API water conditioner, I know prime will lock up ammonia, i'd be using that a 3x dose. salt will stop the no2 from poisioning your fish.

photos dont look good. the fin rot is a secondary bacterial infection caused by reduced immunity, the metro will keep it in check.

hang in there, discus are tougher then people give them credit for, if you can remove all that ammonia you've still got a chance.

[nathanreed]

Thanks ILLUSN,

At the moment we have salt and double API water conditioner in our hospital tank. I will try to get some zeolite and/or prime today. Will keep you posted.

We are down to two discus today,

What do you guys recommend to do to get our main tank back in check?

In our main tank we...

1. Removed all plants.
2. Treated with Myxazin for 4 days
3. Treated wtih Aquari Cycline Tablets. - Tetracycline for 4 days
4. Removed fish to new hospital tank (all remaing treatment done in here)
5. Did a 90% water change to main tank
6. replanted plants, as they were dying in bucket

We only have 4 neons left in that tank and 1 siamese algae eater. Do we...

1. Remove all fish, put in another aquarium (perminatly)
2. Do more water changes,
3. Leave without fish for a month or two hopefully killing all diseases as there are no hosts.

or...

1. Remove all fish, put in another aquarium (perminatly)
2. Remove all plants again
3. Run tank with lots of Salt to kill the bugs/disease
4. Perform lots of water changes
5. Leave tank for a month or two before adding anymore fosh.

or...

1. Remove all fish,
2. Remove all plants.
3. Run water and a BLEACH solution through system.
4. Then put a lot of Chlorine remover = prime

[ILLUSN]

I wouldn't take any chances with your main tank, if all you have left is 4 neons and an SAE, either destroy them or put them into another tank for ever, put this tank far away from your main tank.

the best you could do is remove all the plants, bleach the tank, let it run for a few hours (3 will be plenty) nutrilise the bleach with prime (10x dose), drain the tank, take it out side wash it a couple of times with the hose, let it sundry, you should also do this with your gravel and filter media.

once dry set the tank back up re plant and re cycle.

your cycle should be well under way by the time your fish recover (bout a month to 6 weeks). try and get your hospital tank ph down to 5.5 5.0 (i believe samir goes down to 4 during treatment).

you cant do that with CO2 go get some HCL from bunnings or some acid buffer.

[nathanreed]

Thank you for your very informative post, sounds like fun... :(

In regards to the plants, should we run them through any solution ? or is there no posibility of them carrying disease. e.g. gravel in the plant roots etc?

Thanks again,
Nathan

[ILLUSN]

I wouldn't worry too much about the plants, they cant really serve as hosts for fish pathogens and the yield will be very low once returned to the tank. if your really worried soak them in 2ppm PP for 1/2 hour before replanting.

[samir]

those are probably not heater burns, but caused by the fish darting about and injuring itself.

you must get rid of the ammonia or you will never be able to cure them. regarding the holes, I've had a very fat fish get gaping large craters.

Not sure whether holes = hexamita (nobody knows for sure) but it does generally mean there is something wrong with the diet of the fish.

if you can get rid of the ammonia, lower ph to 5, treat with metro, they should be okay.

[nathanreed]

We have treated tank and aging water with Amonia-lock, hopefully that will help keep the Ammonia down. Re-treated with metro last night. We are now down to one discus now.

In regards to later down the track, I understand that we need to freeze the neons and the siamese algae eater to prevent reinfection. In regards to the last discus, if he survives, which he may, becuse he looks much better, Will he not be a 'carrier' down the track?

could he infect any future discus we purchase ? (we are not planning to for a couple of months).

[ILLUSN]

I know that oce they've had plague and been cured, they never get it again, but that is more typical of a viral infection and not bacterial, if metro is working then you would assume the causative agent to be bacterial, once the fish is cured the bacterial population should be at a low enough level to no infect other fish.

[discuslover]

Going out on a limb here but in the pics is there signs of fin rot. This is what wiped out my discus years ago the systoms were pretty well the same the slimey mucus and slight rot of the fins.

[ILLUSN]

This is what wiped out my discus years ago the systoms were pretty well the same the slimey mucus and slight rot of the fins.

the slimmy shedding of mucus is usually plague, the fin rot is secondary, if not treated within the first 72hrs the disease is fatal in 90% of cases, if treatment is started soon (especilly if the fish are still strong enough to eat) the cure rate is much higher.