Help with dark Discus

[enigmatic]

Hi Everyone,

The last time I posted I had an emergency on my hands as it seems paint fumes had got into the tank and I lost a few fish.

I was able to move all but one of the Discus to another tank and they've all recovered. The one that I couldn't catch is also safe and well and I was able to catch him and transfer him to the same tank at a later date.

Whilst all the Discus have recovered, I still have a concern around 3 of my Discus. I've posted about these guys before but I've not been able to resolve.

I've attached photos of the 3 Discus in question. Whilst I refer to two as a pair, this is just because they were in the same shot; I don't think there are male/female.

All three are quite dark in the tank they've been transferred to although all other Discus appear fine.

These 3 are eating well and are not lurking; they tend to be front and centre; just dark.

The other thing that confuses me is that whilst he was in a tank all on his own, the smaller of the 3 was looking really healthy and colourful. He only went dark when he was moved to the same tank.

Can anyone help me understand what is wrong with these fish?

Main symptoms are:

Dark
Stress bar showing
Cloudy eyes
The flesh does not look clear but has a whitish film on it in places; particularly near gills

I'm not dosing the tank at the moment and doing regular water changes. Temp is up around 28C.

Thanks in advance.

Chris

[Tommo]

I Am No Eggspert But Maybe Check For A Chlorine Level ??

Cheers tommo

[enigmatic]

Hi Tommo,

I'm not sure how to test the chlorine level but there is definitely no smell of chlorine in the water.

I also dose the tank with Prime and Stability to counter anything in the water.

The other thing is that it is only these 3 Discus that show any signs of something not being quite right.

Chris

[Tommo]

i think samir or illusn would be the best people to ask but have you checked your ammonia Levels ?

cheers tommo

[Tommo]

And The Reason That I Have Said Both There Names Is Because They Seem To Answer The Quickest Majority Of The Time"I Find Anyhow" ... No Disrespect To Anyone else On The Forum.

Cheers Tommo

[kikoman]

got the same prob before... what I did is frequently water changing.... and buy and put some shell thingy on ur LFS that removes chlorine!

[ILLUSN]

Thanks for the free plug Tommo.

whats your water like? the fish are showing stress, something in the water is irritaing them causing them to produce excess mucus.

they're still holding their fins up nice and high so they're not too bad, try a 50% water change with a 3x dose of prime, if you can put in a teaspoon of salt per 40L, this wont hurt your plants but will help your discus feel better.

try and bump your temp up to 30C for a week or too, just to keep the fish on top of any nasties in the tank

check your ph, ammonia, no2 and no3 and let us know what they are.

[enigmatic]

Hi,

Thanks for the responses and sorry for the delay in replying.

Since I last wrote I've been doing a 30% water change daily when I can. I've just followed the advice of ILLUSN and bumped the tank temp up and added aquarium salt.

Water param are:

Ammonia: 0 PPM
Nitrite: 0 PPM
Ph: 6.8/7.0
Nitrate: Between 10 and 20 PPM

The 3 Discus I've shown in the photos are still dark but have lightened up a little to show their colours.

As before, they are not lurking and are eating like the food is going to be taken off them.

I've just been dosing the water with normal doses of Prime and Stability. What effect will 3x Prime have and is it bad for the Discus?

Also, if I'm doing daily water changes should I be adding salt to the tank after each change? If so, how much?

Thanks,

Chris

[enigmatic]

I have some of these that I bought from ASA a while ago but haven't used any yet:

Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Bio-Chem Zorb

Would there be any benefit from putting one of these in my filter to see if it helps?

[ILLUSN]

Putting the biochem zorb in will absorb anything bad from your water, it will also take out any fertilizers that you use for your plants, your water appears ok no3 is a little high, below 10 would have been better but 10-20 isnt too bad

using a 3x dose of prime will mop any any free ammonia from the splitting of the chloroamine used to treat our tap water, will also bind up any copper or other heavy metals. There will be no ill effect to your discus, as for the salt, just put back what you take out, 1 tsp for every 40L you change.

how are the stools of the fish? if they go white, start adding metro to the food at 1g/100g food.

[enigmatic]

Well there was a slight improvement after adding the salt and raising the temperature yesterday but that seems to be lost today.

I've added a biochem zorb to the filter as I'd rather have healthy fish than worry about the plants.

The stools for the fish are dark and powdery as I've been feeding them brine shrimp.

Metro has been mentioned before when I posted about these Discus a few months back but I've no idea how to get hold of it.

[ILLUSN]

To get metro you'll need a vet, or a sympathetic GP who also keeps discus.

if the stools are good, then you proably dont need metro, what are you feeding besides brineshrimp?

[enigmatic]

I also feed a beefheart mix and the seafood mix that are listed on this site. I've tended to stick with the brine shrimp as I can be more sure that is being eaten and not getting left under a plant and affecting the water quality.

I've done a small water change this evening and they are now darker than before.

I've just spent the last 15 mins or so studying the tank and these darker Discus all appear to have a number of pock marks on their face; more than I'd assume is usual. Is it possible they have "hole in the head"?

Will try and get a photo.

[ILLUSN]

sounds like HITH, maybe a metro corse is needed

[enigmatic]

Here is a photo, the best I can get. Hope it helps explain what I mean.

[enigmatic]

I've also noticed that the pectoral fins are also a little ragged and as you can see from the photo above, the eye is also cloudy.

If I do need to get Metro, does anyone know of a good vet on the NSW Central Coast that I could go to get some?

Failing that, I note that the Waterlife Octozin product is supposed to treat hole in the head. Is it worth dosing with Octozin if I can't get Metro any time soon?

[mistakes r crucial]

PM sent.
MAC

[ILLUSN]

Octozin is metro! + a few other things.

if you can get it, use that, as per directions on the bottle.
Its a bit short in Oz at the moment, will also help keep the bacterial fin rot from getting worse.

try adding some extravitamins to their food to help heal the damage (extra veggies in beefheart mix, maybe some fishtamins or even finely crushed multivitains)

[enigmatic]

MAC has very kindly sent me some Metro which should arrive tomorrow. I'll have the tank ready to dose then and look forward to posting an update of their progress.

Will also keep an eye out to get more stock of Octozin when my LFS has some plus the extra vitamins.

I need to do a fresh batch of beef heart and use some of Andrew Soh's additive.

Cheers,

Chris

[enigmatic]

Hi everyone,

I put the tank lights back on today to see what changes there had been.

The good news is that there appears to be some improvement in the look of the Discus. Unfortunately, they are still dark so I think another dose is called for.

I've done a water change and added some more aquarium salt. Also added some Sera Fishtamin to the water which I hope will give them a boost.

I've also made a fresh batch of beef heart mix this weekend so I will try and get them interested in that too.

[Merrilyn]

Good luck with them.

[enigmatic]

Well I put the lights back on again this evening and there is again some improvement but I'd say there is still some way to go.

Attached is photo of the smallest Discus taken tonight and a photo taken when I first posted. I've not done anything to these photos in Photoshop other than crop to reduce size.

All I can say is that the Blue in the pattern is clearer and brighter now that when I started dosing the tank. The Discus is still dark and the stress bars still present.

I couldn't get a photo of the others but again they are still dark although their blue is more pronounced.

It is too late tonight but I will do a water change again tomorrow and add salt and fishtamins.

Should I dose again with Metro that MAC provided or should I be doing something else?

[ILLUSN]

follow the metro treatment EXACTLY as outlined in the sticky, you want to make sure all the flaggellets are DEAD!, once you've done the 3 rounds, you can ease back for a week or 2 then do a follow up treatment in the food, 1g/100g will be fine, feed 2x daily for 5 days - 1 week.

stomach looks nice and full, fins are held nice and high, so if he's the worst, they should all pull through.

[enigmatic]

I'm still working on my fish but have just noticed something very positive in the tank.

One of the dark Discus was lurking near the back of the tank and not moving away from the filter intake.

The reason for this is that the filter intake is covered in eggs! This is the very first time I've noticed my Discus lay eggs and I don't know if there is a male to fertilise them but it is positive; the fish can't be that unwell to lay eggs ?!?

[ILLUSN]

You didn't mention eggs!!!!!!
that explains the darkness, darkening up so as the fry can find him.

[enigmatic]

I'm pretty sure the eggs have only appeared in the last 24 hours. I looked at the tank last night and don't recall seeing anything.

I still have three dark Discus although the smallest of the 3 is now looking the healhiest day to day.

Should I continue dosing the tank whilst the eggs are there? I don't believe I have the facilities at the moment to be able to successfully raise fry although I will be pressing the wife for permission for another tank.

I'd imagine she will hit me when I ask.

Also, how do I tell if the eggs are fertilised?

[enigmatic]

I've taken some photos to show the eggs and the 2 Discus that seem to be guarding the eggs.

[ILLUSN]

infertile eggs will turn white after 24-48hrs

wow, your fish have a fettish for eheim pipe too.

dont worry too much about raising the fry, getting the pair bond strong, and the parents "willing" to raise the fry is more important.

you can always sneek in an 80L (2x1.5x1) tank when the wife is out doing the last minute Xmas shopping, by then they should be ready (after 2 or 3 goes at it) to be on their own.

[enigmatic]

Well a lot of eggs have gone white but some are still opaque.

I'm pricing up a tank and stand locally. Considering whether to just come home with it and face the wrath.

I'm told it is easier to ask for forgiveness rather than permission.

[enigmatic]

I'm still not 100% that they are on the mend as they are still dark.

The pair have been at it again though and laid eggs on the glass magnet cleaner. They've also been better at fertilising them this time as I've got wrigglers.

Sadly though I've still not been able to get a separate tank for breeding and one of the pair is eating the wrigglers.