Fluoride in water...good or bad?

[Ben]

I thought I would do a poll as its been a while since there has been a good poll on DF.

This goes beyond just fish but whats your thoughts about having fluoride in your water? Do you come from an area where there is no fluoride in your water? have you got bad teeth?

Have you noticed anything with your fish where fluoride is or is not put into your water?

I would like to hear everyones comments! :D

[samir]

where's the don't care option ? :P

[samir]

what is it for marine or freshwater ?? here's some marine info

Unlike warm-blooded animals, marine fish seem able to tolerate extraordinarily large amounts of fluoride in their diet without suffering any ill effects (Gulbrandsen, 1979; Grave, 1981; Tiews et al., 1981, 1982). In a feeding experiment with Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar) and rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss), the amount of fluoride in fish fillets did not increase markedly when fish had been fed frozen krill and krill meal (Grave, 1981; Tiews et al., 1982). On the other hand, the bone fluoride content increased considerably. The EU sets the upper limit for fluoride in animal feed, including feed for farmed fish, at 150 mg kg–1 (Council Directive 2002/32 EC). Julshamn et al. (2004) studied how fluoride from krill meal enriched muscle, whole fish, and bone of adult salmon (Salmo salar) reared in seawater. The amount of fluoride in the feed ranged from 18 to 358 mg kg–1. They found that salmon are highly tolerant of dietary fluoride and that these doses did not lead to accumulation of fluoride in the fish. They concluded that the biological availability of fluoride from krill was low. The feed in our experiment contained higher levels of fluoride (420–840 mg kg–1 in the diets with 50% and 100% krill meal), but this did not seem to have any negative effect on the juvenile cod. It is also interesting that no spinal disorders were observed when larger cod, salmon, and halibut (Hippoglossus hippoglossus) were fed diets containing amphipods and Antarctic krill (R. E. Olsen, pers. comm.). Then again, there may be a difference in absorbance rates between small and large fish. At a length of 20 mm, all the vertebrae in cod are visible and fully developed (Pedersen and Falk Pedersen, 1992). According to Otterå and Lie (1991), a cod larva at 18.6-mm length has a wet weight of 49.2 mg. The start weight in this experiment was 28 mg, a weight at which the vertebrae were not yet fully developed, suggesting that high fluoride content might have caused the deformities.

[samir]

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wat/wq/BCguidelines/fluoride/fluoridetoo-20.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6540903&dopt=AbstractPlus
http://fluoridealert.org/news/554.html

[ILLUSN]

hi Ben are we talking tap water or strickly discus water?

[apistodiscus]

The lethal dosis in Samir's first link are way above what is actually added to your drinking water. Sodium flouride (NaF) is not used in your water supply but more likely to be found in your toothpaste. Hexafluorosilicate and hexafluorosilicic acid are used in water flouridation. Usually a concentration of around 1ppm.

As I have stated before, enough of any substance will become lethal at some stage.

[samir]

we have about 0.9-1.3 mg/l in Sydney. I don't think Brad was pumping them out because of no fluoride.
Discus spawn on demand in Sydney water, with fluoride, so I don't think that has anything to so with it. dachoo can probably breed them in his kitchen sink and ACT water has 0.9 mg/l .

For the poll my vote would be it doesn't matter, but you don't have that option :P :lol: :lol:

[Ben]

Illusion I am talking both but more aimed at water that is used to breed fish.

I wonder how Brad got so many good spawns?
The link between him and crew in Melbourne with mains water seems to be fluoride but maybe it is something else...?

[samir]

I think Brad did his water changes straight from the tap :shock: maybe its just him not the water.

[nicholas76]

Does Brad have chlorine in his water? I would have thought that this played more of a role than fluoride? I dont have an issue with fluroide.

Samir your right Brad was doing a w/c straight from the tap.

He was setting his hose on mist spray instead of a normal stream though.

[Ben]

He does/did have chlorine in his water but Wang water does not have any fluoride in it.

Unless it is some other crap thats in melb's water that makes breeding more tricker......

[apistodiscus]

Chlorine is easy to get rid off. Sodium thiosulfate will do the job. Just be careful that your local water does not contain chloramines ( a combination of ammonia and chlorine). The sodium thiosulfate reacts with the chlorine but you will have free ammonia in your tank water which isn't a good idea

[samir]

whats the conductivity of your water compared to Brad's ? Sydney water is 19 - 20 microsiemens

[apistodiscus]

whats the conductivity of your water compared to Brad's ? Sydney water is 19 - 20 microsiemens
Very much doubt that you have blackwater coming out of the tap. 19-20 microsiemens would translate into literally no hardness.

[samir]

Very much doubt that you have blackwater coming out of the tap. 19-20 microsiemens would translate into literally no hardness.

why don't you give it a thorough read :roll:
http://www.sydneywater.com.au/Publications/Reports/TypicalWaterAnalysis.pdf#Page=1

[nicholas76]

what do our water companys add to make our water so soft?

my gut feeling is , its all the other goodies to make our water so sam good that is the issue!

[samir]

I'd just be happy if my KH test kit gives a reading other than zero. whats the point of buying one.

[apistodiscus]

Very much doubt that you have blackwater coming out of the tap. 19-20 microsiemens would translate into literally no hardness.

why don't you give it a thorough read :roll:
http://www.sydneywater.com.au/Publications/Reports/TypicalWaterAnalysis.pdf#Page=1

Ok, I see. They measure it in microsiemens per metre. Usually it is measured in microsiemens per cm.

[ILLUSN]

what do our water companys add to make our water so soft

rain water is naturally soft, in sydney the major rock types of warragamba are sandstone and granite/ignious. these leach very little carbonate into the water and so it stays soft, also the organic matter around the dam (gumleaves old trees etc) help soften the water much like peat.

if ever you get the chance to head off to genolan caves check out the "blue lake" that provides all their drinking water, the limestome makes the water super hard.

there so much carbonate in there that it reflects blue light makeing the water appear a cloady topaz blue.

[seecuta]

Sydney water is 19 - 20 microsiemens


Correction, just checked the site provided and that is 19-20 mS/m which is 19-20 millisiemens/metre.
I was pretty stunned when i read the above quote as i know for a fact that water down here in melb is alot harder than that.

Acheiving 19-20 microsiemens would be excellent but i dont see it happening without RO



Ok, I see. They measure it in microsiemens per metre. Usually it is measured in microsiemens per cm.


microsiemens per metre would make the water even SOFTER.


Sorry for being such a pedantic prick but i felt obliged to clarify these issues.

[apistodiscus]

You are quite correct. It's Monday mrning over here. The brain's not quite warmed up for the week yet :D

[samir]

Sorry for being such a pedantic prick but i felt obliged to clarify these issues.

could you be a pedantic prick once more and clarify this LOL. so its 19-20 mS/m , would that be 190-200 µS/cm ??? Thanks :D

[seecuta]

samir, that sounds about right.

[fishgeek]

hardness and conductivity as i'm sure you know are not the same thing guy's

cnoductivity is related to the number of charged particles in a water
hardness is related to specific particles , not all


so saline with just Na and Cl ions has high conductivty and no hardness,

andrew