Nitrites Spike 10ppm (discus very stressed) Very wierd! HELP

[dynamixcoder]

I have a 55 gallon aquarium with 1 discus (red snakeskin), 3 days ago i checked the chemistry and found:

Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrites: 10ppm
Nitrates: 1ppm

This tank is 3 monthes old and established, no powerfaults, no water changes above 20% and nothing added chemical wise(except the same dechlore).

I have everything on a battery backup APC, thats how i know its not a power outage cause... i even tested it.

i have removed the discus into a 10 gallon tote with low flow filtration and bare bottom.

this discus is very stressed (clamped fins..) im unsure if hes gonna die.

i have no idea what caused this to happen but im afriad im gonna loose my discus..
BTW, hes still swimming and moving about in his quarentine tank..

what do i do?

[dynamixcoder]

also there hasnt been any overfeeding, i make sure the fish eat everything.

[Merrilyn]

Nitrite poisoning is often called 'Brown Blood Disease' because nitrite prevents the blood carrying oxygen. A fish in a high nitrite water may suffocate, even if there is plenty of oxygen in the tank.

You did the right thing by removing the fish to another tank, but you'll have to do daily water changes (unless you have a cycled filter in there) to prevent ammonia and nitrite rising again. Also add pure salt, at the rate of one teaspoon (heaped) per 40 litres of water which will help the fish to breathe. Did you test the pH of the water in the new tank as compared to the old tank. Even a small difference in Ph will cause shock to the fish, and a big pH difference can cause death.

All you can do now is wait, and see if the fish recovers. Were there any other fish in the tank, or was he in there on his own?

We need to find out why your three month old tank is still showing nitrite readings. In a cycled tank, you should have NO ammonia or nitrite and only a small level (around 10 ppm) of nitrate.

It sounds very much like your tank has never cycled fully, and is actually still in the process of cycling. What did you do to cycle your tank, and how often do you perform water changes?

If you've been cleaning your filter media in tap water, that will kill off your nitrifying bacteria, and prevent your tank from cycling. A drop in pH will also negatively affect the biofilter.

Have a think back over the last three months, and see what may have caused the tank to re-cycle.

You can't add your fish back to the tank untill the cycle has finished, the nitrite is gone, and the nitrate reading is up.

[dynamixcoder]

yeah i know brown blood disease.

no tap water comes directly in contact with the tank without dechlore.

it was cycled 2 monthes ago... (nitries 0 ammonia o nitrates 10ppm)

20% water changes every 2 weeks

ive been at this 10 years .. trust me .. nothing i did caused this!

it has to be something else.

all the other fish are fine...

Fish:
16 neon tetras
12 glowlite tetras
1 angel
6 austrilian rainbows (bosmani, turquise and neon)

[Merrilyn]

What's your pH reading ?

One 20% water change every two weeks is way too little. You should be doing 30% twice a week if you want to keep discus. They need VERY clean water.

[dynamixcoder]

well its also got sump filtration 2x the rating for a 55 gallon, PH is 6.5-7.0 average... this is controlled with CO2.

Filtration:

undergravel with 4 tubes in operation

HOT magnium 350
Emperor dual bio wheel
30 gallon sump with 900GPH, 5 LBS of bio balls, 5w UV , 2 layers of polyfiber media.

yes the UV is not on the intake, its on its own pump in the box

[Merrilyn]

Got me stumped. Everything is perfect, and yet something has caused the filter to recycle. :scratch

You obviously know what you're doing, so it's not as simple as some mistake in management.

Hmmm as a last desperate thought, how old is your test kit? Old kits can give false readings, although that seems unlikely with your experience.

I'm a great believer in "when you eliminate the possible, all you're left with is the impossible" and impossible as it seems, your tank is going through another cycle.

All you can do is wait it out :?

[dynamixcoder]

well the liquid ones are about 5 monthes old but i get the same reading on the test strips(ugh i hate strips) and they are brand new.

i dont mean to come across snippy or anything.

i know Cycle and all them bio-additives are total bull so i wont even bother with those.

ugh this is killing me, i wish there was a way to easy fix all this.... but wish in one hand and shit in another ... see what fills first. lol

[Merrilyn]

This one is frustrating me too, and I've had thirty years of breeding discus. :banghead

We've got a few members on the forum who are chemists and vets. Let's wait and see what they make of this.

Hopefully someone's got an answer.

[dynamixcoder]

this is a stupid question,

recently my LFS started carrying a detox product for nitrites... Naturally i think this is bogus, is there any merit to this products or is it just another waste of $12 like Cycle?

as far as aquarium salt, i thought scaleless fish have problems with it and get burns or dont tolerate it well???

i know the salt helps prevent methemoglobin from getting too high in the blood from posioning... but i never attempted it with most of my fish being scaleless.

[Merrilyn]

Don't like cycle, never have, but I do use NitraZorb pouches in some of my tanks, especially in the tanks of wild caught fish,where I'm looking for a particularly low nitrate reading. It seems to work, but then so does heavy planting with fast growing plants :?

Errrr correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any scaleless fish in that list you posted of your tank, unless you have catfish in there too.

All the tetras you mentioned, as well as discus have scales and will quite happily tolerate 1 heap teaspoon per 10 gallons of water. The neon rainbows are salt tolerant, not sure of the other rainbowfish, never kept them. But I meant to put the salt in the hospital tank with the discus, not your main tank, because your plants won't like it.

[dynamixcoder]

i know they have scales i do have corys, but i was under the impression that discus are from the amazon that has little if none electrolites and arent very tolerant of salt,

it was a random info tip i picked up and just left it at that long ago.

ill give it a try then.... any paticular salt better than the rest?

i have sea salt (also have saltwater tanks) and Aquarium pharm salt for my live bearers.

[Merrilyn]

Best is just plain old rock salt, or cooking salt, also known as kosher salt.

All the others have additives, which you don't need. We just want to add chloride to the water in it's simplest form.

You'll find discus tolerate salt well, especially at that level.

[dynamixcoder]

really? just plain old table salt pretty much? amazing..

[Merrilyn]

Well table salt usually has some kind of filler in it to make is flow easily through the salt shaker, so cooking salt is really better.

I think the filler is just cornflour, so it's harmless, but probably best not to have that in the tank.

[djceri_g]

Sory to take over the post but I have a head bannging problem that needs solving! lol

Ive done fishless cycling twice now, and both them times Ive has the ammonia and nitrite dropping to 0 ppm within a few hours, but the wierd thing is, theres never a nitrate reading!! Maybey once or twice I have sad a slight reading but its always on 0 ppm! How wierd! I have 0 ppm reading from my tap but there should be a reading because the ammonia and nitrite should turn to nitrate! Any suggestions? youll be banning your head on a brick wall!

Oh, by the way, I have no plants in the last cycle, also, no nitrate removal spounge (well think i havent in my filter)

[dynamixcoder]

well not TABLE salt .. but i know what you mean...

good news my discus is perking up, i had to kick the heat up some to 83F to ensure hes warm but hes acting better and looking better.

i feel like i busted myself back down to a beginner with discus, i really dont care im just wanting him not to suffer and live thru this all.

[Merrilyn]

Well you're doing everything right. I hope your fish has a full recovery.

Now what we need to do is sort out that darn nitrite problem for you.

[dynamixcoder]

yeah i agree this eludes me to death... im sure it does for many others lol

[samir]

treatment for nitrite toxicity is 6ppm salt per 1ppm nitrite.


THE USE OF SALT TO PREVENT AND TREAT BROWN BLOOD DISEASE
Freshwater fish, particularly channel catfish, are susceptible to brown blood disease, which is caused by an accumulation of nitrite (N0 2 ) in the water. Although most studies conducted on brown blood disease have used channel catfish as a model, many other freshwater species are also susceptible to the condition. A detailed discussion of nitrite toxicity is provided in a separate IFAS publication. Following is a brief review of the use of salt to prevent and treat brown blood disease.

In freshwater systems, nitrite toxicity is directly related to chloride (Cl - ) concentration, since nitrite (N0 2 - ) and chloride (Cl - ) particles compete for space to cross the gills and enter the bloodstream (see Figure 1 ). As chloride concentration in the water increases, nitrite's ability to enter the bloodstream decreases.

Figure 1 .
The critical component in brown blood disease is the chloride (Cl - ) portion of the salt molecule (NaCl). For this reason, a test to measure chloride concentration (ppm) should be used rather than a test that uses a hydrometer or refractometer to measure salinity.

A minimum chloride concentration of 20 ppm is recommended to prevent nitrite toxicity among channel catfish in ponds. Most ponds are supplied with water containing at least 20 ppm Cl - ; however, salt should be added to ponds containing less than 20 ppm Cl - to increase the chloride concentration to the desired level (see Table 1 ). For each acre-foot of water in the pond (1 surface acre, 1 foot deep = 43,560 ft 3 ), 4.5 pounds of salt adds 1 ppm chloride.

Salt may be used to minimize mortality and facilitate recovery of fish that develop brown blood disease. For every ppm of nitrite present, 6 ppm chloride should be used to control the disease. As described earlier, the producer must determine the required chloride concentration, adding 4.5 pounds of salt per acre-foot of water for each ppm Cl - needed (see Table 2 ).

1. This document is Fact Sheet VM 86, one of a series of the Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences, Florida Cooperative Extension Service, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida. Reviewed November 1995. Please visit the FAIRS Web site at http://hammock.ifas.ufl.edu.

2. Ruth Francis-Floyd, D.V.M., M.S., associate professor, Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine; Department of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences; Cooperative Extension Service, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida, Gainesville, 32611.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM007

[dynamixcoder]

thank you for that, this furthers my understanding of brown blood disease and nitrite posioning.

[dynamixcoder]

i havent quarentined discus like this before, only for meds and its was 2 days at most.

scince i dont have any clue how long this will take how often should i change the quarentine tank water and how much...

also should i pre-medicate (very low dose) for fungal infections just in case?


thank you for all your help.... i have you guys to tank for him still pluggin along instead of twirling away and dying... (cross fingers)

[Merrilyn]

If you're using a cycled filter, then three times a week at 30% of the tank's volume.

If not, then daily.

I wouldn't be using meds at this stage. He's been through a rough time. Just the salt will be fine.

Thanks Samir for the great article. The concern now is why a cycled tank, in the hands of an experienced fish keeper, should suddenly have a huge nitrite spike.

Read through the whole thread, and you'll see where we're coming from. Got any thoughts? It's got us puzzled.

[Greggy]

The bacteria that convert NO2 into NO3 are much more fragile compared to the bacteria that convert NH3 into NO2, so something like a biggish temp swing or a temporary pH drop must be suspected.

The mere presence of NO2 means the tank is still cycling or is re-cycling. Perhaps the initial NO3 readings you got came from your tapwater?

This is why I like to run a heavily planted Discus tank as NH3, NO2 and NO3 are never usually a problem (once you get everything in balance and cycled of course).

Regards,

Greggy

[dynamixcoder]

I found the cause!

my titanium heater was shorting out, the temp changed from 83 this morning to 79 and the heater was clicking on and off (the power)... noramlly i wouldnt be able to tell this but my heater has a digital box on it and the actual Power to it seems to be cutting out.

im heading out to my LFS today and buying a new heater, figures this is actually 5 years old and i should have thought about it because i had another exact one that got blown out on another tank.

[Merrilyn]

That's great news!

So glad you found the cause so quickly.

How is your fish looking today? Is there any improvement.

[dynamixcoder]

hes still stressed as to be expected in the quarintine, i put black back drop around the tank to close out alot of light.

running the quarintine tank at:
temp: 83.5 - 84 F AVG


im unsure if i should attempt to feed him tonight, but i guess it couldnt hurt to do it before i change his water.

[Merrilyn]

By all means feed him.

A plastic plant or a flower pot turned upside down should help to make him feel a bit more secure.

Discus like to feel they can hide.

[dynamixcoder]

step ahead of ya, i have a peice of malaysian driftwood in there. (gotta love driftwood that sinks on its own lol)

im not sure what to feed him in a time of stress like this... the only live food i can get in my area anymore is brine shrimp that you hatch yourself... (a big headache).

the last store that carried bloodworms and adult brine live was a place called byerlys and they closed a month ago and for unknown reasons.

im gonna try frozen bloodworms, i hope he will take it.

[dynamixcoder]

good news once again!

he ate a few frozen blood worms and high-protien flakes!

im going to transfer him into a larger grey tote so he doesnt feel so confined after tomorrow... btw nitrite still leveled at 10ppm

[Merrilyn]

Gotta love a fish that eats :thumb

a sure sign that he's feeling better.

[dynamixcoder]

bad news, ammonia reads 1ppm -

nitrite still hanging at 10 pmm.

i only have to assume the bacteria took a sevear hit somehow..

there has to be something killing them off, im switching dechlore brands just in case, because untreated tap water would trigger something like this because all other aspects are covered.

funny thing is i havent lost any fish and they all are eating and hyper as hell with no stress symptoms.

[dynamixcoder]

good news nitrite dropped from 10ppm to 0ppm OVERNIGHT... lol

tested it 15 min ago and tested it last night and verified that it dropped with 3 different samples with my liquid testers.

mr.discus is being prepaired for re-entry in a day just to be sure....... yay