Please help new discus very sick!

[magic-city]

Hello,
Please, can someone advise me as to what should be done…
I just received our first discus…yesterday (7-3-07)
We have 22 discus….two sizes (11 discus Half-dollar size) (11 dime-size)….they came from the same private breeder, using over-night fed-ex. He used Jungle Bag-Buddies, which seemed to really mess them up for awhile…especially the smaller babies?)
Both tanks are fully cycled aged set-ups….with no current residents except the discus, bare-bottom with a few potted plants and plastic plants and bog-wood (from pet-store). I do 20% water changes every other day. As I have offered food, which they still have almost no interest in; I remove all uneaten food off the bottom, after 30 min. Feeding what breeder said they have been feed (frozen beef heart, bloodworms) I tried adding fresh-squeezed garlic on food…also tried some brine shrimp frozen….very little is being eaten? Frozen feed brand = Hikari
Both tanks water stats today….
Temp = 86 deg F
Ph: 7.3 = 1/3 RO water 2/3 aged tap
Hardness = 7 deg
Ammonia = 0ppm
Nitrites = 0ppm

(Tank #1)
When they arrived the dime-size babies were all gathered at the surface, swollen gills, rapid heavy breathing, fin-rot, ick parasites…..nine of them remained shaking and quivering at the surface all day yesterday…
today they are only three at the top (fin-rot is getting worse) (I have removed these three into hospital tank) (treating with mardel Maracyn-TC 250mg Tetracycline Hydrochloride per-directions) Maybe this is making them worse?
A few of the babies in the main tank dart and swim quickly (not in response to noise/movement from us)
(Tank #2)
The larger discus are doing better than the babies, some minor fin tears and ick along with a few of the fish with very heavy breathing and limited movement/response)
All discus are still not eating, (some pick but not much actual eating). (they are not very active and most are grouped up) and remaining very low to the ground/floor of the tank. Some of the larger discus have started to get their red-eye and loosing stress bars…but others are still dark, heavy stripes, dark eyes, heavy breathing.

I wanted to avoid using medications for these discus…but their condition seems to not be improving with 31 hours later?? Is this all normal shipping stress that one should always expect from discus? What should I do? Please can someone advise me as to what I should do for these poor babies??? Is there a safe medication for the young dime-size discus?
Please any comments/advise are greatly appreciated…thank you for your time

[magic-city]

Additional message:
They appear to have okay feces in the shipping bag…brownish/black no white stringy stuff….
Not much feces right now that I can observe due to their lack of eating….I don’t see signs of major internal parasites. Their foreheads seem nicely concave.
My water stats are very close to what stats the breeder gave me….
Also, I acclimated them very slowly…approx 1.5 hours ½ cup of my tank water addition every 20min 4x

[samir]

is a picture possible ??? in the meantime increase aeration and lower the ph over a couple of days to around 5.8-6.

[magic-city]

samir
yes I have already increased by adding another air-stone in each tank over 6+ hours ago in hopes that this would help...also I am slowly bringing temp up at 88-89deg F...thank you for advise...at least I have done one thing correctly... :? Thank you

I am not sure about lowering ph....breeder informed me of his water stats, and I also got his city water yearly report for 2006 his ph is at 7.8 and he said it goes to 7.5 in the fish tanks....he said this is what the discus have always been in and are doing very well in. He advised not to change my water and that they would do well??

My local water runs 7.8-8.0 so I added RO 1/3 this brings TDS in half or more and drops PH to near 7.3 (the best color match I am able to do)
would this not cause more stress on them to adjust ph....I am not sure if I can keep this stable if I add more RO....because my KH is already low with 1/3 RO added (30 mg/l (ppm)) = 3 deg

do you think all this problems is from too high of ph???

any advise please?

[samir]

a lower ph will inhibit most bacteria and flagellates thus giving the fish a better chance of fighting off the illness. If you get your ph down to 5.8 to 6 or even 5 if possible then most of the borderline cases will recover on their own.
Plus if you're treating with antibiotics your biofilter will take a knock, so a lower ph will cover the ammonia spike that may occur

[magic-city]

Today is my first time using one of these message things...
how do people normally talk about problems ect...e-mail, this thing or the (PM) button...not sure where messages are going??
:oops:

sorry I dont know...

Not only fish problems...computer talking problems...oh boy....
:shock:

PS. took awhile for me to figure out how to get message posted for people to read...I am slow...

[samir]

(Tank #1)
When they arrived the dime-size babies were all gathered at the surface, swollen gills, rapid heavy breathing, fin-rot, ick parasites…..nine of them remained shaking and quivering at the surface all day yesterday…


i missed that. maybe bad packaging ??? how long was the trip ? could be ammonia build up in the bags ?

[Merrilyn]

Hello magic city, and welcome.

I'm not real sure what Jungle Bag-Buddies have in them, but I assume it's something to provide oxygen. I'm not in favour of adding anything to the bag when shipping, other than pure oxygen, and a drop of "Prime" made by Seachem, to neutralize the ammonia which builds up in the bag.

From what you're saying, it seems that your fish may be suffering from ammonia poisoning. There's not a lot you can do other than support the fish. Unfortunately, there's no cure. All you can do is give them the best conditions possible, with clean water, and warmth and lots of oxygen in the tank.

Ammonia burns the gills, making breathing difficult, which is why the juveniles were hanging at the surface.Add an extgra airstone or two to the tank, so that the water is saturated with oxygen, and do small water changes every day.

You've done everything right. The problem happened in the shipping bag long before you got them. Good luck with them.

Have you informed the breeder of your problems?

[apistodiscus]

hi magic city,
i have posted my (somewhat lengthy reply) in your post in Discus keeping 101 already http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13124. You might want to have a look.

On top of that I would suggest to take down your pH gardually. A pH drop of more than 1.4 points in the negative direction will cause osmosis shock also known as Bor effect. The last thing you need. Indian almond leaves will do this. You could also filter over peat.
I don't know if you can get a hold of alder tree cones in your part of the world but they are great to keep down infections. If you can get them, take two handfuls and pour 2l of boiling water over them. The water will turn almost pitch black. Add it gradually to your tank (measure your pH constantly) This has to be done slowly and over several hours.

[magic-city]

Merrilyn and Samir,

I will bring over my response from (information 101)
I am very sorry that I did two messages...I did 101 first and realized that this was not the right place to put this....

[magic-city]

(copy from information 101)

oh... I asked if shipping was okay with discus...he said so (30yrs experience)...he has sold other auctions of dime, quarter, halfdollar....?

That was what I was thinking that maybe they were just too small/young.
lastnight I tried to look on-line regards to this...I did find info saying what you have said. Also they said that small discus should eat within the first day...! They are not eating hardly anything...there is a few that pick and spit...rest show no intrest at all! (now on three full days @ 1:30 today)
Any advise on this?

I did turn above tank lights off yesterday and today...only room light is on. I am sure glad that I did that.

[magic-city]

I have some pictures....they are not very good...but maybe you will see something..

I tried to post in message forum but my picture file it too big?

I am sorry I dont know how to do this?

I would like to send 5-6 photos of all discus both sizes....each photo info

JPEG Image
opens w/ Nero PhotoSnap Viewer Essentials
size 397 KB (407,319 bytes)
size on disk 400 KB (409,600 bytes)

[magic-city]

This is info off of Jungle laboratories web-site



Bag Buddies Fish Bag Tabs


• Fish Bag Water Conditioning Tablets with Fish Calmer
• STORE USE SIZE

The first water conditioner with fish calmer that comes in easy-to-use, mess free tablets. Protects customers' fish by reducing stress, promoting slime coat, removing chlorine and chloramine, neutralizing harmful metals and adding beneficial electrolytes. Plus, with the added fish calmer, fish stress is further reduced. Just one tablet in fish bag water also releases oxygen into the fish bag and ensures fish arrive home safely, in quality condition and better overall health.


My call to Jungle was returned today...in regards to the actual ingredients in their (Bag-Buddy Tablet). She explained to me the uses of this product are "recommended only for short trips not 24+ hour shipping process" Also she explained to me that additional oxygen MUST be placed into the bag for this Tablet is not sufficient. she expressed a strong possibility for this product not giving correct readings for ammonia using Nessler reagent.

The only ingredients that she disclosed to me for this product are as follows and no concentration amounts/numbers were given to me...even upon request.
Ingredients that I am aware of via company phone call:
Chlorides of potassium and sodium, clove oil

If I recall right clove has a strong sedative effect on fish and also a lethal level for euthanasia methods....

My concern is that there might be a large difference in using this sedative effect for 1 hour vs long-term 24+ hours could prove to have very different effects upon the fish? (still use on fish and its effects upon the fish exposed to clove oil for extended periods of time.)
Maybe this is why they (Jungle) do not recommend using this tablet for shipping fish...only for short-term trips from the pet-store to your home...
Also it is not FDA approved fish anesthetic..(though I am not sure difference this would make these days)

It seems there is still much to learn about clove oil and its actual effects on fish...physiology, immune response, breeding ability..long-term conditions from over-exposure to clove oil./directly related to fish.
(If someone knows or has suggested reading...I would like to know)
also I did find a few sites that listed reactions/side effects in the human body when clove oil reaches too high of levels. of which there is many serious health concerns for people...in addition to this it appears that clove oil is much like most other natural essential oils...very prone to contaminations... Fungi and aflatoxins are amongst the most common contaminants. Ingesting contaminated clove can lead to health problems in humans, as well as in animals. (this I found on reports)

if anyone has thoughts, ideas, or research....I'd enjoy reading and learning what other people think about the use of clove oil for shipping fish.
:o)

[samir]

Even with oxygen I do not believe that a dime size ( 1.7 cm ) discus should be shipped.
They are very fragile at that stage. It is also the size at which they start dying in large numbers if there are flukes or other parasites present in the breeder's system.
I wouldn't recommend getting any below 5cm, even larger if they have to take a 24 hour trip. Treat for flukes,aerate heavily , keep changing water, ph low and hope for the best.

[Merrilyn]

How are your fish looking today magic-city.

Is there any improvement?

[magic-city]

samir Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:55 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even with oxygen I do not believe that a dime size ( 1.7 cm ) discus should be shipped.
They are very fragile at that stage. It is also the size at which they start dying in large numbers if there are flukes or other parasites present in the breeder's system.
I wouldn't recommend getting any below 5cm, even larger if they have to take a 24 hour trip. Treat for flukes,aerate heavily , keep changing water, ph low and hope for the best.


Thank you Samir, I shall listen to your advice....next time I purchase....I shall go for much bigger...I had no idea flukes could be such a problem...I have read about it...but no personal experience until now..


Merrilyn,
Thank you for asking :o)

Hmmm....I really don’t know....what exactly to think

No more fish loss at this point! :D

The babies are now EATING!! (I have never been so happy to see fish pooh) :wink:

There is 7 that are eating very well for the last two days....I am feeding them small meals about (6-7 times a day) they are taking nearly everything that fits in their mouth! And begging for more every time they see me near...it is great to see! Only two are still not right...
How many meals should be feed to small dime-size?
(Currently we are doing all prepared frozen feed...)
However, they are still flashing....just a little bit...I am on last day treatment with (QUICK CURE)

As for the larger ones (half-dollar)...hmmm I have no idea what is going on with these poor babies...something is still wrong....medical issues? they still are not really eating...a lot of picking and spitting...(at the bog-wood, plants, filter, food...nearly all day long)...but they are not really eating nor much pooh.(It has been six days now!) How long can they go without eating?

They still have ick...or maybe its not ick...its very small for ick. from what I can see its mostly on the fins. I assume this rules out Oodium/velvet?
I turned light off and used flashlight I dont really see gold-color dusting or anything of the sort? just very small white dots on fins. (They have anywhere from 3 on some up to 15 some dots) (not a lot...thank goodness)

they are doing a lot of flashing against their gill/head areas...still red, and the gill covers on some appear to be extended outward more than normal...(I think)
I just cant see anything else other than that/ fins are still jagged around edges...maybe some cloudy coloring on the fins? I am just not sure what they should look like when they are healthy and happy...never see it yet... :cry:

I assume all of this would be gill flukes? I think I read somewhere that often with gill flukes they will not really eat just pick and spit?
Or could this be what people talk about discus flu?

Thus far Treatment....
Let them sit for the first two days..(extra air and water-changes)
Third day I did Quick Cure
Temp: 90 deg
water change daily approx 20-25% aged water-matching their stats.
Tank test as of last night:
ammonia: 0ppm
nitrite : 0ppm
Nitrate: 5.0 ppm
ph : 7.2 (breeder kept them @ 7.5) and three times the TDS

I did get some action out of them using live garden worms and live fruit flies... they had a blast chasing, biting, playing...but I still had to siphon them out after 30min.

I have done full treatment of (QUICK CURE) (its a three day treatment....I guess I will try another treatment with this product...it says a second may be added/needed)

On the bottle it says treatment for (mild fluke outbreaks). as much as I dont want to....but should I do something stronger?

unless someone has any idea what different medication might be better for them?

Any ideas, thoughts, suggestions....I thank you very much for!!
YOU ALL HAVE BEEN AWESOME AND SOOOO MUCH HELP AND ENCOURAGEMENT....AHHH THANK YOU SO MUCH!
I AM TRULY BLESSED TO BE HERE WITH ALL YOU GUYS HELP! :D

[magic-city]

Please help.
oh no....I just went to try taking another set of pictures....and I have problems....in the half-dollar group there is a smaller one maybe half-size....not sure why breeder sent so small of one...anyways...
He has white pooh....I know he has not eaten anything from the time we got them....(6 days) this is the first time I have seen them with this!
is this from not eating or are we talking major internal parasites?

[magic-city]

this is the same set of discus...sent with little blue cobalt with white pooh...
Ones that are not eating...can sort of see ick on fins: tail of Dragon in the center of photo. also jagged edge fins....not sure if you can see in picture...gills?
sorry such poor picts...this is only camera we have to work with
Maybe someone can see something....

Thank you

I am going to post a few more pictures...of these discus

[magic-city]

here is another one same set of discus

[magic-city]

we are still trying to adjust settings on camera to see if we can get a better photo of them...

...........................

[magic-city]

here is better picture up-closer to the gill area...still not great.
Maybe these fish look okay?
..(the gills move outward more than what I see in pictures ect...not all their gills are doing this...however there is still flashing/quick rubbing against the wood and plant stems (rubbing only gill/head area) not body.

[magic-city]

another note about discus with white feces...
it is not stringy....slimy...or anything like that

it is firm solid and clearly white...

could this still be internal parasites?

also lastnight I removed her to her own tank at this point in time....
still more of this feces...today

[magic-city]

another thing I forgot to explain....

the main thing I did different between the two sets of discus....
the dime-size I ran a treatment of maracyn TC (250 mg tetracycline) in addition to the quick cure....

the larger ones I used only Quic Cure

same temp
water stats
ph
water changes ect...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

:cry:
edit: I have spent length of time watching them....many have white feces at this point in time!! only the larger batch (half-dollar) that I can see so far....some is more slimy than little guys...in previous photo....for sure a problem with this set that was shipped together...

I dont have metronidazole....

I have Clout? I have PraziPro? Other recommendations?

[magic-city]

we got a microscope today....

I am taking feces samples....
This is what I see...
There is oval moving things all over in their feces? They have spots of coloring on them....
also another circle shape...that moves in spinning motion...
(still looking more)

anyone know any sites I could look at microscope pictures?
I can only find exterior smears of fish....parasites?

I found one nice site but no internal stuff
http://ukdiscus.co.uk/microscope.htm

[magic-city]

Findings...
Still have three more samples to go through

[magic-city]

I think we have lots of problems….not sure what treatments…so many things….
I hope some of this makes sense to someone…any ideas or sites that have good video or photos would really help….or if someone understands what in the world I am trying to describe seeing in their feces under our microscope. This is all from one sample. (fresh sample...with slime)

Number 1
We have found many Oval shape/pear these have two hair-tails and move rather quick....on high magnification can hardly keep up with him to get a better view. (smaller)

Number 2
other parasite we are finding appears to be like a fluke-shape these ones have hairs at end....tons of smaller hairs all along his entire sides of their body...he moves slower in slug-like motion....arching head appears sucker-like. this one is longer and skinner than the oval shape parasite...

Number 3
another variation we are finding of this one we found ob-long/oval shape…with a very long skinny head that expands…the head moves in a probing motion….its head area is extending out great length(2-3X size) head becoming skinny almost to a point…appears to lack the extra hairs of the previous mentioned one. Slower moving as well.

Number 4
Also found a very small worm...very small...reminded me of a (fry food…micro-worm)

Number 5
Two Very large…worms…fat body-shape sort of like a caterpillar.? Head like a snake…two-indented-like areas where eye spots located…slightly pointed/tapered tail…moves just like a worm…so large whole body does not fit within microscope view @100x.
(The above things were all found in small feces sample…very fresh collected)

Number 6
Almost perfect circle shape….movement in a spinning motion…(this was found in a little older sample)Good Bacteria?

Treatment advise for these parasites we found?

Thank you for your time

PS. might be tapeworms...segmented...flat looking...but have not seen one move to make sure it is not just stuff....(feces)

[Greggy]

DON'T PANIC !!!!

All feaces contains hundreds of different kinds of microscopic ogranisms including bacteria, and these will present in all kinds of shapes, sizes and colours under a microscope. Its perfectly normal for these organisms to be present. Discus (as are many highly developed vertebrates) are even able to cope with a considerable 'payload' of parasites such as intestinal worms and body/gill flukes etc without them looking at a death sentence. Sometimes these need to be treated, and sometimes the treatment is actually worse than the parasite!

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I really think you need to forget about complex issues such as what bacteria strains your finding in your fish's poo and instead concentrate on getting the basics right. You need to make sure that:

1. Your water quality is in peak condition, with ZERO Ammonia and ZERO Nitrite, and VERY LOW levels of Nitrate. Perform daily or twice daily 50% water changes if required.
2. Your water temp is set for rearing young Disvus - about 31C should be ok and it must be stable... use two heaters if required. Verify the temp with a reliable thermometer that you kNOW to be accurate. Cheap electronic temp sensors are usually off by about 1 whole degree.
3. You maintain high levels of Oxygen - keep one or two air stones bubbling 24/7
4. Medications... Now this is the tricky one! Only address the most life threatening illness conditions with medications and in order of the actual threat to your fish's lives. I can tell you right now that even if they have intestinal worms its not going to kill your Discus in the next few weeks, and maybe even not for several months. However if there is an outbreak of Ich (white spot) you must treat them promptly or you will suffer losses.

I won't go into details of exactly how to treat each condition as there is a whole forum subject on this matter... just remember not to go overboard on getting everything sorted out at once, because eventually you won't see the woods for the trees, then mistakes are made, then fish usually die.

Get the basics right, address the urgent issues (if any) and then slowly diagnose any other problems carefully and correctly. Then choose appropriate treatments, the whole time making notes of how things progress.

Good luck!

Regards,

Greggy

[magic-city]

Hello Greggy,
Thank you for your help :o)

we have found 50-70 different moving creatures...in one very tiny feces sample!? Is that normal parasite load for baby discus? you dont have to put any effort into finding these creatures in their stool...

Not sure if you read....I got them july 3rd...and they still do not eat food?
they have white stringy feces....no normal colored! this is over last few days time...they are loosing weight...they are sick...two cobalts are now black! (half-dollar size discus)


Thus far Treatment....
Let them sit for the first two days..(extra air and water-changes)
Third day I did Quick Cure
Temp: 90 deg
water change daily approx 20-25% aged water-matching their stats.
Tank test as of last night:
ammonia: 0ppm
nitrite : 0ppm
Nitrate: 5.0 ppm
ph : 7.2 (breeder kept them @ 7.5) and three times the TDS

(Yes I posted all these stats on page one...awhile ago...a lot of people gave very good help with the basics...and I thank them once again they have helped get me this far with them..)

Thank you for the advise about water changes, Temp, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, air stone....I have all those bascis covered at this point in time....and they are not improving....getting worse....

[Greggy]

What you are likely seeing in their feaces under the microscope are not parasites but 'normal' bacteria found in the bowels of ALL fish, and is to be expected. If you looked at your own (and I don't suggest you do) you would probably seem something very similar.

If you have checked all the basics (as above) and the health of your fish is still in decline then something else is causing it. Try treating with some medications that are not too nasty... I suggest the following (in order of application)

1. Protozin *
2. Sterazin *
3. Parazin *
3. Octozin *
4. Levamisole
5. Praziquantral

Note * I like using Waterlife's medications as they don't seem to harm the biological filter as much as other meds can.

If after all that they still die at least you can at least say you tried virtually everything! Maybe it just wasn't meant to be this time???

Greggy

[Merrilyn]

Magic City, the symptoms your babies are showing, with the white droppings, turning dark, and not eating, indicate that the parasites in the gut have reached huge proportions because of the stress of travelling, commonly known as hexemita.

Time to help them out with antibiotics, or you are in danger of losing the lot.

I think you are in the USA, is that correct. If so, you can buy antibiotics over the counter at your local aquarium shop. You need something with metro in it. One brand you may know is Flagyl. If you can't get it locally, it will be available online.

The instructions on using Flagyl are contained in a thread here.

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2475

Good luck, you've got quite a job on your hands now.

[apistodiscus]

metro is quite aggressive on your filter. I sent you a pm with regards to a heat treatment as recommended by a lot of fishkeepers in Europe. Greggy has suggested that you treat the work problem first. Yours is the flagelattes and then potential gill flukes after that.

[fishgeek]

i would guess that some of what you are describing are protozoa( the haired{ciliated} round things)

and some maybe nematodes

microworm are not actually a worm but a paramecium? i think
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/TOPIC_Fish_Parasites is a very useful link for mainly line drawings and descriptions of more common parasites

possible pathogens just a quick idea http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=spironucleus+microscopy&spell=1

discus page holland has some great articles on using your microscope, i would suggest using it as much as you can, practice makes perfect
and some photos and videos aswellhttp://article.discusnews.com/catagory-02.shtml#diseases


hope that is of some use to you
andrew

[magic-city]

Thank you guys sooo very very very much for all the help!! :D

The pet stores do not carry any of these meds! :( (even the best one in town...we only have three stores to choose from)

I am having problems finding Flagyl (aka) Metronidazole...right?
I found a site that I can order but shipping cost $30.00+ dollars could not get until Thursday-firday

Flagyl made by Bayer...should be over-the-counter medication?
I will go look today! Human use one will dissolve and act same way as the aquarium grade?
If I cant find I will try contacting vet...see is she can help us out...meds are a big deal around here....she is a vet-on-the-go...she does house visits...though she only treats small animals...no exotics...maybe she can make exception for this.
Oh that Flubenol 15 sounds really awesome...what I read about it....I will have to order this....not sure best on-line place to get this med? I will keep searching around some more…I would like to have that on-hand….instead searching when I need it…
Would Di-N-Butyl-Tin-oxide from www.nationalfishpharm.com parasite D formula...work as well as the Flubenol 15?
Because I was thinking of getting the metro from them and also Aqua Gold bacteria crystal for boost in tank after meds....
Unless someone has better idea.?
I am concerned for my biologicial bacteria….thus far we are doing okay….any ideas?
would one treatment of "clout" by aquarium products... be a good start and then head into metro treatment when this arrives from national fish pharmacy through mail-order?
Unless I find Metro here in the store...at pharmacy over-the counter….Then I will start that today!
Fishgeek: Hey those are great sites! thank you....I have bookmarked
I still need to go through http://article.discusnews.com/catagory-02.shtml#diseases
sure is a lot of info in here that I could learn…

Yes I need to do much practice and learn...

thank you everyone for encouragement!

I am blessed....

PS. Merrilyn Thank you for your help…I think if I understand you and apistodiscus are talking about same drug? I am finishing reading about where else I might be able to get metro…thank you for the link so I can make sure on dosing and how….That helps a lot!

apistodiscus.... thank you for all your help!

[magic-city]

okay found picture of the main things we see in stool sample...there is still four other things....

There is a lot of these as you said...yeah looks like hexamita :cry:

I am trying to post photo of it
?

[magic-city]

ahhh...they are going down-hill quickly....
Would clout by aquarium products work at least half-as good as metronidazole?

I cannnot get metronidazole for another three days!
Pet stores dont even carry hex-a-mit!
My vet-who does home visits...is out of town until next week!
This is not allowed to be sold (OTC) in the US! nope nothing....

They are clamping up...moving less....they are sick...I just dont know if clout is safe? effective? what in the world should i do for my bio bacteria after this nasty treatment?

[magic-city]

Oh my goodness....I found one vet who will give me the meds needed....I will have them in two hours....she is having me sign a release of responsibility for the meds...
It only took almost 20 calls to different places around here! oh praise GOD! :D :D :D

I dont understand what Dose

250gm per 10 Liters...of tank water?? this seems like a lot?
1 gallon = 3.79 liters?
This would be approx one 250mg tablet per 8-10 gallons tank volume?

what would full dose for 26 gallon tank??
I dont understand sorry...

I read another place 400mg per 50 gallons of water?

I am confused...sorry to bother you again

please someone explain simple terms of dosage....Maybe per gallon...I am not so good at conversions...how many days?
Can I still do daily water change?
What about adding Epsom salt? teaspoon per gallon?

any extra advise in regards to administering this medication correctly...
I know turn off light...three treatments? daily?
I also read two dose am and pm 8 hours apart?
I am sooo confused now how to give this?!

Thank you SOOOOOOOOO very much for everyones help!

forgot to write medication : Metronidazole she is getting me either 250mg tablets or 500mg tablets...not sure which one yet

:D

[magic-city]

okay....I have 250mg metronidazole

I also found this link about dose
http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9403


Would the 6ppm = 6mg/L of water be a good starting place for them?
maybe do waterchange...and re-dose 2 times day? (8 hours)

Thank you

[magic-city]

I guess the most common dose I find is

250mg per each 10 gallons of water

if heavy illness

400mg per each 10 gallons of water

2x a day with 30% water change?


Ps has any one used "Aqua-Gold" by National fish pharmaceuticals?
This is a bacteria booster for damaged bio from medications...to be used at the end of treatment?
Did it work well?

Okay...starting water changes and running carbon to make sure all past meds are out of water....

_------------------------

Okay starting metro treatment...boy there sure is an art to mixing this into a paste like stuff before adding to the tank....

I also was thinking maybe I should try making some into medicated frozen feed...anyone know how to do this? What can a person add to it to avoid the bitter taste of meds? fish oil? garlic?
(when they get to point of eating...)

[fishgeek]

metronidazol dose is 25mgs per litre of water... you do the maths as you americans use funny gallons

this dose should be repeated 3 time at an iterval of 48hrs

metronidazl is not the most soluble porduct in water so advisable to crush as much as possible, and then dissolve in warm water which you can then poor into tank

if you have totreat the main tank then remove some filter media to a bucket with an air stone so it is not medicated

as for antibiotic effects on filter bacteria , that is a hugh area with many variables
metronidazol is not a particularly good anaerobic antibiotic , as such it is in theory less likely to be good at killing the aerobic bacteria of the filter

it does have potential for knocking back biobacter levels ... the consequence's of this will depend largely on the functional mass of bacteria that your filter contains versus the function mass needed to cope with your water processing(ie how many to convert ammonia from feeding and fish waste to ntrite) and there doubling time (ie there ability to recover from insult)

basically dont treat in the main tank if you can avoid
dont use carbon at the same time

if you cant avoid main tank tratment then take some filter bacteria out before treatment and you can return the after

i dont water change unless tests suggest water quaility deterioating during the 6 days of treatment
after this larger change and back to usual routine

if you wish to make in feed the fish need to be eating, yours arent are they?

[magic-city]

Wow...thank you for your help!

you sure are a fish geek... :lol: J/k

Yeah we got funny ways of doing things in the US... :) So I will try to do the math again…

about metro...have you personally used this level of dose??
Results?

Okay that was a really good idea about the filter...I will do that!

Question: if I put in bucket...there will be no source of ammonia to keep feeding the bacteria? air...I understand they need lots of oxygen..but ammonia is the first bacteria’s food...so it can make nitrite...ect...
I just dont understand I guess...

No there is two sets...same breeder/seller...
first ones suffered mostly from ammonia poison in bag...lost two during first night...some of those little guys are eating...

The other group...no...they sure pick...a lot...but they seem to just watch the food and some spit and push it around...nothing more than this...never really ate like a discus should…
I just thought if they start to eat...or in future...if I catch this problems before its really bad...I would like to know how to do metro for feed...As of now I plan to use frozen...and I am looking at DIY seafood diet.
If you have idea I will try...

[Gajowa]

Hi nameless
Dosage of metro for 26 gal (100 l) is 16 tab.
One tab = 250mg of pure metro which means 4 tabs = 1gr. This is dosage used in Europe and recomended in books. Treatment is like this (in sterile tank);
1-th day; 16 tab/100 l
3-rd day; 8 tab/100 l (half of the original dose)
6-th day 50% water change and filtration through carbon
9-th day start all over again.
Also add 1 tbl of rock salt/ 10 l (3 gal) and rise the temp to 35deg Celsjus. Lights MUST BE OFF.

This discus fish aren't babies!!!! The seller is a fraud!!! Not only he sold you a sick fish but they are at least 6 mth old (in my oppinion). Look at photo 192 and 294. The eye is far too large, and that fish will not grow anymore.
I wish you lack with treatment. You will learn on this fish how to look properly after discus and next time you will buy a better quality fish.
Sorry for saying this, but that is the truth

Barbara

[magic-city]

okay..thanks for letting me know about discus quality... I appreciate you speaking your mind.
I know now…that they are not the quality that many folks would even spend effort on…

But

This is what we have received and I cant change that….I just want to help them. We can not just go buy a new batch of discus. This was something we worked towards for a long time. Maybe in a few years we can get better ones…but not for awhile.

I cant just give up…I will keep trying!

Its me that does not have the experience and knowledge….sure many people here could know and fix them…the first try.

I really appreciate all the help! Made it this far with everyone’s help! Thank you!

I am going to post up-date photos.

There is improvement…I think. There is 7 large discus that are eating very well! They even feed from my fingers now and are always begging for more food. White feces has almost completely stopped in these seven. The dime-size are also feeding…(so I think there is still hope!)

Problem still = flashing/rubbing gill/head area….gills still don’t look right? Swelling is going down for some of them and breathing better. But they have red streaks that can be seen through gill plate!? Some of discus still have flared gills…they don’t lay flat they stay puffed outward?

Anybody know what this means? I tried to look up google cant figure it out? Could this be infection?

To me they look deformed? I have tried to get better photos for posting…just my pictures are over 700kb then I loose picture quality to post it in forum? I can e-mail original photos to someone if this can help...

[magic-city]

Here is some photos

[magic-city]

I know they are not real good pictures...
I have taken 200 pictures and this is the best ones...

Did not see those big water spots until now... :lol:
guess everyone will know I am doing water changes...

[scott bowler]

magic-city
hi it looks like you have a real gill fluke prob there .thats why the gills have the red and dont sit flat .you can treat it with prazi or sterazin that what i would use .

[scott bowler]

wow just re read the post i should say still have a gill prob .

[Merrilyn]

Magic city, you've done a wonderful job to get them this far. Even the more experienced discus keepers would have found it a challenge with such young fry, and the trauma they suffered during shipping.

So give yourself a well deserved 'pat on the back' because you've done very well.

At this stage, I wouldn't be adding any more medications to the water. Give the little guys a chance to rest and recover their health.

If you like, you can add some cooking salt (or plain kosher salt) to the water to help with the breathing and assist healing. Add one heap teaspoon per 40 litres of water (or ten gallons of water) and keep it at that level for a couple of weeks. At that level, it shouldn't have too much effect on your plants.

Good luck MC, you're well on the way to becoming a very dedicated discus keeper.

[magic-city]

Thank you....Merrilyn
I could not do this w/o all peoples help in this forum!

You dont think they are going to die from flukes if I wait to treat them for a few days? this blood-like streaks has been there for awhile already....but they are eating and good feces now!

Could their gills be infected?

I do have salt in there....for a few days now... :) good advise from a you awhile ago..
dime-size (that we have left...gills looking worse than when we got them...they looked wrong from the start..also fin rot/is arriving agian..) I check tanks stats every day 2x ammonia is okay thus far...
I have temp @87 deg F?
I lost three more this last week = 5 lost total...*sigh* I did remove their gills and microscope them...I cant find anything moving!? I got these no more hour after death...still cant find parasites like flukes in gills? Only strange black markings...all over gills...I will post picture of what looks like..

[magic-city]

this is almost exact to what I did see in gills when I used microscope
maybe I am just looking at open wounds damage on the gills? not parasite?

only other thing I found very round objects...not moving from what I can tell...maybe fluke eggs? or velvet? I just not sure what I am seeing

[magic-city]

Thank you Merrilyn and Scott! :D

I will rest...rest....rest....do nothing....except enjoy them for awhile now!
and stop watching their gills.... :oops:

Gosh, you guys are great!

I think you guys R right...I'd try to do too much and go backwards...

Sure is nice to see them swimming and feeding...and starting to get their own personalities! :D

[scott bowler]

you are most welcome ,we are always happy to help keep us posted as to how they are going

[Gajowa]

Hi
You coudn't find anything mooving, because parasites leave fish's body within 20 min after it's death. Check this website;
http://www.fishdisease.net/

Barbara

[magic-city]

Barbara - thanks for the info!

i guess that sure would explain why I did not see anything in their gills!
Sure confused me...becuase they have all the symptoms of something in their gills!

Thank you

[Gajowa]

Magic-city if you permit, I will coppy that photo and put it at our polish forum. We have a part called "Mikroskope" and few people who are very good at identifying parasites. Mayby they will help/

[samir]

3% salt dip until they roll over, then transfer to a clean tank.

[Gajowa]

Parasite was identify as oodinium. You can do what Samir sugested, or try this long term treatment by Andrew http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3469
Andrew's treatment will also kill flagella.
I hope your small discus are better by now.

[samir]

Better to try Andrew's method as his ways usually work better than mine . Unfortunately in this case, its the parents that needed to be treated, before breeding. feed them a beefheart heavy diet it might get some of the shape back

[magic-city]

Thank You so very much for everyone’s help!!

U guys are great!

Still hanging in there w/ them... :)

Dime size group are showing improvement….W/ growth!

:D

[Merrilyn]

That's such good news magic-city.

We're all keeping our fingers crossed for you, and sending good thoughts your way :P

[magic-city]

ah thank you Merrilyn!
:D :) :D

[Andrew Soh]

Samir,

I like your blue discus...looks like a copy of mine...ha!ha!ha!

Yes, use salt....magic-city.

And Samir is right too....treat the parents before they spawn....save a lot of nightmares.

Take care,
Andrew :wink: