Health check for my Discus

[enigmatic]

Having just lost a Discus that has been sick for a while, I'd like to get some advice on the Discus I have in my main tank. As per my other thread (http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=99985#99985), the Discus that was ill was in my main tank for a while before I could catch it and transfer it.

I think that my main tank is OK but would appreciate any input.

The first Discus I am unsure about are my two Blue Diamond. These go from being brilliant blue to being dark every now and again. Tonight, one is vivid blue and the other is dark. At other times, both can be dark.

Both are eating well and seem OK but I'm just puzzled with their change of colour.

Will post more info in a while - just got to help the wife with the kids ;-)

[enigmatic]

These are the two pigeon that I got from Xtreme and I'm pretty sure but not 100% they are a male/female. These 2 are probably the dominant Discus in the tank and are first to any food and protective of their corner of the tank.

Both appear to be very healthy and maintain their colour all the time.

[enigmatic]

This is the snakeskin I got from Fish Rock and was bought with the Discus I've just lost.

This guy has come on strong and filled out a lot but will sulk at the back of the tank and go dark as well.

[enigmatic]

This is one of two red spotted greens that I got and both of these fish can be quite dark. Tonight, this is the only one that I could get a photo of, the other was busy lurking at the back of the tank. Not the best photo but you can see that this has some dark patches.

[enigmatic]

This is my checkerboard pigeon. Again, has come on pretty well but tends to scrap with the other pigeons in the tank. If I'm right and the other pigeons are a pair then it is the female that tends to have a go at this Discus.

[enigmatic]

Finally, tank parameters:

28C
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 0
pH: 6.6 - 6.8
Nitrate: 10

Tank had 50% water change after dosing Octozin whilst the sick Discus was in the tank. Currently running carbon in the filter that will be removed at next change.

Sorry if this is a rambling post but I guess I'm just concerned about the Blue Diamond, Snakeskin and Red Spotted Greens as they go quite dark even when the tank parameters appear OK.

From reading Andrew Soh's book - I'm leaning towards this perhaps being a parasitic infection. If this is the case, I'd appreciate some advice on how to treat. Andrew refers to:

- Antibiotic for gram-negative bacteria
- V.B. Exterminator
- Prophylactic treatment with Potassium Permanganate

[fishgeek]

no experience with discus whatsoever

and

colour is mood dependant so will not neccesarily mean illness
mucous scrapes for microscopy
feacal samples for microscopy and fi feeling brave
gill biopsy

would be the 3 easiest and most useful tests you could run

andrew

[enigmatic]

Hi Andrew,

Agree colour can be mood dependant but when 8 out of 9 Discus are happy with one specifically that is lurking and gone very dark I'm a little concerned.

I don't know where or how to start with what you are suggesting.

Photo shows how this one Discus was very dark - this is the larger of the two red spotted greens I have. The next day it was almost back to normal colour but nearly always has a hint of black about it.

When I say black, this is not the stress bars which do come and go.

[Greggy]

Try raising the temp to 30 degrees C and more than likely they will all come good. I tried to keep my new 6x2x2 Discus community tank at 28C but my 6 new juvenile Discus just kept hiding in the rear corners of the tank, dark in colour most of the time and not really interested in eating/swimming around that much.

But within hours of raising the temp to 30C it was like their 'switch' was turned on! Now they are all bright in colour, swimming around the tank, and generally acting more like you would think Cichlids do (fighting amongst themsevles etc). They even all come to the front of the tank when I stand there to feed them, and they munch down as much food as they can (I'm careful not to over feed them).

All the other fish so far are ok, including the 5 SAEs, 2 Bristle Noses, 3 Sterbai and 1 Peppered Corys, 24 Cardinals and 8 Black Neons. A few of my plants don't like the higher temp and are obviosuly 'dying' and no doubt I'll lose them soon, but most the other plants (especially the swords) are still growing well.

Maybe when my Discus mature I will drop back to 28 or 29C but for now the higher temp of 30C is an absolute must.

Regards,

Greggy

[the german]

thats spot on greggy.28 is too low you can go for 29 for the plants but anything under that is too low.especially juvis need 30 or their metabolism dont work right.

michael

[enigmatic]

OK, thanks. Will increase the temp and see how I go.

Chris

[dntx5b9]

Any update on your discus? Did you make the temp change?

[Andrew Soh]

Hi Chris,

Your second and last photos truely review sick discus in your culture.

In my past observation, discus don't usually change to a dull or dark tone without a reason....and the reason is generally related to infection.

If it is only stress, the stress bar will impress and for barless discus the colour will be lighter and for pigeon-based....more peppering. But all in all, they will immediately retreat when frightened and a while later swim forth again.

Sick or infected discus tand to stay back(can be corner) or behind a decorative. Of course it could also be due to water quality...but since only one or a few are affected and the rest are as healthy as you can ask for, then that few are infected with parasite(s).

And if the colour-tone changes frequently and they are not gasping for air at the top....chances is they are infected with endo-bacteria(internal).

But you could try treating them externally first with PP and if no improvement...then long bath with antibiotics.

The VB exterminator is actually Pro-more but to kill certain viruses and bacteria, the dosage must increase. Pro-more at a dose of 10 to 40gm to 1kg of beefheart...fed 3 times daily... will help to prime the sperm(milt) and produce more gametes....resulting in better fertilization.

Given at a dose of 100gm per kg of beefheart x 3times daily with garlic added will become a powerful anti-virus and anti-bacteria concoction.

It was found, with feeding this concoction for a month to fishes including discus, a bacto-culture done found zero bacteria in the spleen.

Take care,
Andrew

[enigmatic]

Sorry for not replying before now; I've been off sick and then been interrupted by children hyper on chocolate.

Yes, I raised the temp to 30C and have made some more frequent 30-50% water changes in the week and a bit I've been off sick when I can (every 2 or 3 days). I've also given the substrate a good hoover.

All of the Discus appear to have reacted well to the increase in temp and all are eating extremely well. I've been feeding them at least 3 times per day whilst I've been off and it seemed that every time I approached the tank they came for food.

I've kept the diet to frozen brine shrimp and have increased the feed of frozen beefheart mix that I made (Ladyred I thank you again for the recipe). This is consumed well by all.

I have a separate mix that I made from reading Andrew's book that has spinach and more garlic (than the Ladyred recipe) in but this isn't taken with the same reaction. Not sure if this is due to the extra garlic or just that they need to get used to it.

The red spotted green is out more and eating well but does still lurk a bit and also is a bit grey/darker than ideal.

Have monitored water quality (specifically ammonia) with the extra feed and all parameters look OK.

Andrew, thanks for you comments and I will send you a payment for the Pro-more we've already talked about.

Will search the forum for more info on the PP treatment; have seen where to buy it from but not sure how to treat.

[enigmatic]

Just a quick update.

Things seem to be on the move since I put the temp up to 30C. The Discus are out more and more and seem to be going well.

I bought some Pro More from Andrew and added this to some existing Beef Heart mix. This have been taken well and even though it is only very early days, I think I can see an improvement.

Will post again after a few days, week or so.

Cheers,

Chris

[the german]

thats good chris,hope they will be big,strong discus in a couple of weeks :D

michael