Lost two discus so far...

[shawn barker]

Hi all made a big mistake and added another three discus to my tank a couple of weeks ago. I don't have the facilities for a quarantine tank, unfortunately, and now all my original discus are sick, the three new guys are fine.

They are not eating (bad sign for them) and the worse ones are laid at the bottom of the tank barely breathing, their fins look like they are dissolving(can't think of another way of describing it) colour has become very dark although they don't look slimy. One of my bigger ones has now got some gashes on its head from the strange fits it has had as it suddenly zooms around the surface almost trying to jump out and has collided with the support braces across the tank, strangely I have two that are at the surface at strange angles and another three at the bottom corners also resting at strange angles?

The water parameters haven't changed (barley detectable nitrite, ammonia etc on my kit), only a slight increase in ph as I have stopped the CO2 whilst treating. I've also increased the temp to around 34 C (my heater won't go any higher). I'm aerating the tank by having the return from one of my filters just above surface level in a vain hope to aerate them a bit. On the advice from my LFS have been treating with eSHa Hexamita and eSHa Exit to prevent secondary infections(?).

I don't know what else to do or what the illness is? Should I get hold of a smaller tank and put them all in it for treatment? Am I treating with the right stuff AND why oh why did I get some more :(

On a brighter note the manager at the LFS has agreed to give me credit for any that die BUT I would rather they stayed alive.

[discus lover01]

Hi do you have any pictures or can you get any pictures. the fish have gone black and there fins are being eaten away it sounds like something very nasty and not hexamite as this does stop them eating but you dont get the fin rot with it.
The 1 thing to do and always remeber is quarrantine when you dont know where the fish have originated from as they can be healthy where they are but doesnt mean they are not carrying the disease that has now affected your other fish.
Is there a foul smell in your tank as well and i would back the temp down to 32 as 34 seems a bit high even for discus 32 is what i have raised temp for to treat hexamite and if it was hexamite you would have thick white poo being deposited from the discus.
Without pictures it's hard to diagnose it correctly but from what you have described it does sound like discus disease without the white slime coming from them or at the best case it is a fin and body rot parasite thats causing this can you give more details of symptoms.
thanks

[shawn barker]

The lights are out now on the tank but I shall have to try and get some pictures tommorrow.

I haven't seen any white poo at all from any of them, but then they haven't fed for a few days now. There is no foul smell from the tank either but the fish don't look at all well and to be honest I'm kind of expecting to pull at least one out in the morning now...feel kind of useless and stupid for letting this happen.

How would quarantine work if the new fish are immune to what ever the disease is and appear to be carrying? How long should I have quarantined them for? A bit late for these questions now but I guess I've been lucky in the past and not had any probs.

[discus lover01]

i would be doing a water change and i would be trying a fin and body rot treatment with some salt added into the tank to try and help them to destress a bit and it does also help in the healing process a bi.
Quarrantine we always keep new fish by themselves for upto 14 days and the way to see if there infected had they not shown any signs of disease is to add one of your fish to the quarrantine tank and if after a few days there all still healthy then you can almost safely say the fish are not carrying any disease.
This is however not 100% fool proof either but infecting 1 fish is better than infectining a tank full of them even though we dont want to be infecting any fish at all on purpose.
The quicker you can get pics if it is the plague as there is a form of this going around that the discus dont get the full blown symptoms no white slime coming from them but they do look black sit in corners or lay flat on the bottom of tank or flat almost on surface but there bodies look like a patch work quilt black with white patches over it and the fins are getting eaten away is 1 strain of the plague thats going around at present.It's still the discus disease but seems to be not as nasty as the full blown one that i had 8 years ago that killed 2000 discus.
If it is this strain of it time is critical and i would be doing a water change to get the treatment out that you have in there and get some Tetracycline and add to the tank at recommended dosage keep the temp at 32 if you can do this for 24 hours you should see a bit of improvement hopefully and i will give you my mates name to contact and he can give you the rest of the treatment to add after 24 hours of tetracycline being in there i can almost say with sureity that it's not hexamite.
Hope this helps

[discus lover01]

i can not send pm's on here but if you can e-mail me or add me to msn bcarson1@bigpond.net.au if you have msn can work through other stuff a lot quicker.
thanks
brett

[shawn barker]

Well there is no need to wait till the lights come on for your picture as I have just had to fish another one out.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l282/shawn-b/fishstuff002-1.jpg

Hope this may shed some light on it as its getting me down.

If it is the discus plague what can I get in the UK to treat it and where from?

[discus lover01]

Hi it doesnt look like discus disease or the plague it looks more like a fin and body rot parasite i would try using a fin and body rot medication first but what you can do is take one of the dead fish to the LFS where you got the other 3 discus and see if he can identify this but it doesnt look like discus disease but what ever it is it's deadly as it's killing fish fast ad me to msn chat or to e-maikl me and i can try help out a bit more.
thanks
brett

[Merrilyn]

Shawn, I'm so sorry to hear of your problems.

I've sent a PM to fishgeek (Andrew) who is a vet and also a fish breeder living in the UK, to have a look at this thread. Hopefully he may come up with something positive for you, and he will certainly know what medications you can obtain in the UK.

I've sent another PM to our good friend Andrew Soh, a very experienced breeder and author of discus books, for his opinion.

It's not plague, looks nothing like it.

But it may be a bacterial infection, and the fin rot is a secondary infection.

Obviously your new fish have imported some disease with them, but we need to try to find out what it is. The two week incubation period and the photo may help Andrew to come up with a solution for you.

[Andrew Soh]

Hi Shawn,

You have indeed made a mistake...though not very serious if you know how to handle it.

First, let us talk about what might have caused your problem.

Basically, the existing discus in your tank are settled well and should be immune to the bacteria and/ or protozoans flora in the tank.

When you introduced new discus into it, the new guys may be carrying some parasites including bacteria which in normal circumstances are insignificant (not in pathogenic quantity and may not cause harm)....so don't blame the LFS......but because of the new introduction, the existing discus go into stress (it is like suddenly having 20 guys carrying guns into your home). This stress triggered a drop in immunity. This gave rise to the newly introduced parasites to invade resulting in proliferation and infection. But because the new guys are immune to the parasites...they are not affected.

In many cases, both the new comers and the existings fall sick at the same time...or maybe one after another.....so you are luckier...ha!ha!

It is good to go through a qurantine process...that is the best...and I have mentioned in my book the procedure....but....nothing is loss if you accidentally stock into the existing without quarantine.

If you "OH, OH...made a mistake"....then immediately treat all the discus together as a whole with PP (2mg per litre of water for 24 hours..change 100% water and treat again....all in all 3 treatments in three days). After the three prophylactic treatments with PP, observe the condition. If they are well and eating...add some acriflavine for 5 days long bath as maintainance and prevent bacteria proliferation form both sides.

If you feel they are not in optimum condition...instead, do a 12 days prophylactic treatment with an antibiotic....like erythromycin (don't use tetracycline...very painful).

That should clear things up.....

Anyway, you can do it now if you want to save the rest.

And yes....do adjust temperature to 34 (though this temp won't kill them , but because theyu are sick...)....you might just kill them. Leave it at 29C.

Maybe if you want...adjust pH to 6.5 :wink:

Take care,
Andrew

[fishgeek]

i agree with the general sentiment of new fish being brought in amongst naive fish being the cause
i take it the new fish are not from the same source as the old fish

the darting, jumping makes me think of a flee response which may be because of enviromental conditions(prehaps the low oxygen at such high temperatures) though toxins should be affecting all fish
so in this case i think it is likely the fish trying to flee from unknown discomfort they are experiencing

i would be inclined to guess some form of bacterial septicaemia and similar responsible for the fin rot etc you are experiencing
treatment on the other hand may be difficult
in theory some cultures of spleen etc of one of the recently dead fish would be ideal , though you wont get answers on that inside 3-5 days and even if done now earliest would be wenseday

antibiotic therapy in england is quite tightly controlled, and i still think your best bet , though finding it maybe difficult
willam wildgoose in leyton east london is a good fish vet though prehaps to far from you ..

esha 2000 is the usual mix of dye based medicines and is likely only useful for the external problems , my concern would be getting omething orally into the fish or injected

just as a note certain bacterial infections will be aided by high temperatures, also there growth will also consume oxygen and cause water quality issue's


andrew

[shawn barker]

Thanks for all the help and advice, not sure I understand all of it, or am able to get the necessary treatments within the UK either.

I have been guided to a local Discus specialist, never knew they were so close!

I need to get a few things in for this afternoon to salt dip the worst affected then put them into a smaller hospital tank (scrounged from the depths of my parents shed and in need of a heater and filter) then treat them all with something called JBL Furanol. (Both tanks I'm assuming)

Not quite as hi-tech as the methods suggested here but on my limited budget and resources it seems about all I can do at the moment and if I do nothing death seems to be inevitable for them.

Once again thanks to you all and I will let you know if I manage to save any.

Shawn

[discus lover01]

good luck shawn sometimes it is betetr to stick to the simple methods and methods that you dont need to be a rocket scientist to figure out hope i was able to shed some light on the problem after seeing the pics and seeing that it wasnt the plague and hope you can save them with what your doing and yes you would need to sterilise the water in the affected tank or you would take the chance of reinfecting the discus when they went back into there.
good luck

[Andrew Soh]

Maybe you can check with Paul Lucas in England :wink:

He is a specialist too.

Take care,
Andrew

[gfindura]

Shawn,

Wow! Sorry to hear about your discus woes. I was just checking out this section because I like to be up on the etiology of diseases of all my fish and I happened upon your link.

It looks like there's a great support network on this forum. Very good to see.

Anyway, one thing that I didn't notice as I was looking at the responses to your post was the recommendation to use a UV sterilizer in your filtration system for your discus tank. Use of one of these should eliminate almost all water-borne diseases in your tank. I'm not sure if you already have one as you did not mention if you do. However, it might not be a bad idea to get one. It will not eliminate the disease the fish already have, but it will help prevent the spread of that disease.

For the remaining fish, you want to give them as little stress as possible: 83-84 deg F water, ~6.5pH, small quantity of marine salt, plenty of airation, and little-to-no light. And, you'll probably want to follow one of the medication regimens recommended on here or from your local discus specialist.

Good luck!


-Greg

[shawn barker]

Thanks for your input Greg.

I don't have a UV steriliser yet but it is now on my wishlist and shall have too start nagging my wife into letting me get one.

To update on my progress, I have separated the worst affected three into a smaller tank, have tried salt dipping them but on advice from other specialist(?) have now opted to treat them with JBL Furanol which I have just added to their tank. Shall leave them over night and keep my fingers crossed that they show some signs of improvement.

Maybe someone on here will know this one. Is it desirable or necessary to treat the display tank I have removed them from. The Furanol instructions warn that it destroys all bacteria in the filters which I would have thought would be stressful for the Discus that appear to be healthy and picking up on their own(only one of these 6 looks a bit off but it won't let me catch it, its still very quick and hides under bog wood and amongst all the plants when it sees me coming with the net) as it would result the tank having to recycle?

[Greggy]

Correct me if I'm wrong people, but I would suggest trying not to kill off all that hard work that it took to get your display tank cycled, and try to save at least some of the beneficial bacteria in your filter(s).

Assuming you have at least one canister filter, go and find a 25L (or larger) bucket and fill it with tank water. Remove at least one of the bio-media baskets from your canister filter (or a significant amount of bio-media) and place this in the bucket with an air-stone for water movement and oxygen exchange. This should keep most of the bacteria alive over several days, and since it will be sterile (in terms of no fish) any nasty bacteria or parasites floating through the water within the bucket will probably die off without a host (fish) to feed upon.

You can then treat both tanks with anti-biotics to make sure you wipe out any nasty bugs. Once you have completed the required treatment(s) I would do at least two 100% water changes over a period of two days to make sure you remove 99.99% of the anti-biotics etc. Then when you fill up again with the 3rd batch of new water you can open up your canister filter(s) and replace the basket/bio-media that you have saved using the bucket.

This should avoid the need for completely re-nitrogen cycling your display tank which would only put even more stress on your already fragile Discus. Even if you lose all the original fish to the disease you will have the benefit of having a bug-free and a more-or-less fully cycled tank from which to start up from again. I'm sure at the very least you'll save the newcomers and any other tank mates from your display tank.

Remember this is a disaster, but things could be worse, so don't give up!

Good luck!

Regards,

Greggy

[samir]

One of my bigger ones has now got some gashes on its head from the strange fits it has had as it suddenly zooms around the surface almost trying to jump out and has collided with the support braces across the tank,


would this point to something in the water ?
how barely noticeable are your ammonia and nitrite readings ?
IMO its a case of poisoning. maybe an overdose of medication , chlorine or chloramine perhaps ? can't be too sure but thats what I think :?

[gfindura]

Greggy!

Haha! That's what my mom calls me--and I only let her call me that because she's my mom. And so much for that.

I agree--you do not want to kill off all of the beneficial bacteria in the tank. Even with humans, as a health-care professional, I'd rather see people not take antibiotics as, again, they could have a harmful effect on the good bacteria in the alimentary canal. I'd rather see people do things to keep themselves healthy just as we'd all rather see people keep an aquarium in such a way that keeps the fish healthy (good temp, pH, water movement, no ammonia, regular water changes, etc.)

I am always in favor of trying to remove the infected individuals from the main tank and treating them in a separate "hospital" tank. However, if your display tank is infected with a disease that is wiping out your stock, you have to do something. And, as they say: drastic times call for drastic measures.

Just FYI: the UV filter will not kill off the good aerobic bacteria species in your filter. Hobbyists use UV filters all the time on marine aquariums and we all know how important it is to have a properly cycled marine tank. If you don't, try setting up a marine tank and dump an expensive triggerfish or angelfish in it right away. It probably won't last long.

The UV filter will kill water-borne bacteria and other little living things. However, it will not kill off the good bacteria embedded in your filter material.


Shawn, how are they looking today?


-Greg

[shawn barker]

Well Greg, they made it through another night much to my surprise. I've had to stick another one in the hospital tank though as it was starting to show early signs of what ever is ailing them and another one could with going in there but it hides every time I try to get and I'm reluctant to stress it to much by chasing it all over the tank.

The three originally in the hospital tank are showing very small signs of improvement, they are trying to keep up the right way and one is actually swimming around a little. So maybe the Furanol is starting to work, I hope!

Samir, I've checked and double checked my water parameters and nothing seems to be unusual, in fact the water conditions have been pretty stable for a while and no other fish in the tank are ill. Rummy noses are bright and full of life, cory's are scooting around like they always do, as are the SAE's and bristle noses so I think the water quality is not the problem.

[Andrew Soh]

Hi Greggy,

It is my understanding that most of the parasites are not host-dependent......they can stay alive without host for days on end.

These include worms..like nematodes or planary.......flukes, flagellates, costia, ich ......just to name a few ...including bacteria. The only one parasite group that cannot survive without a host is Virus(Will die in a few days).

IN a normal setting, most of these are trapped in the filter media and when you remove the media, some will follow.

Simplified explanation: A good working and well balanced filteration system is when the good bacteria demand(comsumption) for ammonia is equal or more then the ammonia output from food waste and fish. This leaves nothing for the bad bacteria and parasites to consume...thus they cannot propagate(being suppressed) and do harm. When ammonia level is much higher than what the good bacteria demand, the system crash because hell breaks up!

So, even if you remove some for culture, the parasites there may not die. The only way to kill them is to starve them by not giving ammonia which will directly kill your good bacteria too because they need to eat.

Further to that, some parasites don't starve to death....they can stay alive for weeks. Also, there are those cyst laying parasites (so the eggs don't die even if the water is dried up) and also some other intelligent parasites that usually don't lay eggs...but once a drastic condition threatens their survival, they lay "a single winter egg" that will hatch when the water favours...even Tetra Hymena....a guppy killer parasite(Do you know that with this parasite around in a guppy, guppy keeping becomes more difficult than discus keeping?).

So, in my opinion, take new some media and culture it in a separate tank or pile with ammonia......after about 4 days to one week, nutrifying bacteria will establish thenselves. After that take out all your fishes to yet another separate tank and then sterilize the existing. Once clear, put in the new culture into the existing tank...and finally...the fishes back.

That's my suggestion.

Take care,
Andrew :wink:

[gfindura]

Nuke the tank!

Seriously, though, Andrew is completely correct. It is possible to get something so nasty in your tank that the best solution is to completely tear it down, sanitize everything, and start over. The fact that you already have a working culture will make the process quicker. Still, expect to do this over a few weeks at the shortest.


-Greg

[Greggy]

Whilst its true many parasites and bacteria can indeed survive without a host, the truth is many cannot. However since you will never know if the bug(s) responsible for your problems are alive and well inside your filters and media etc the only way to be sure is to (as suggested) Nuke the entire tank!

But be warned... you will need to treat each and every fish, plant and drop of water from the old tanks with some serious meds to be 100% sure you have wiped out what caused the problem, otherwise you will just go around in a circle again next time you bring in new fish, which is bound to happen one day.

Sometimes its easier just to start over 100% clean and euthanase all the fish, throw away all the plants, santize the tank, filters, fittings, substrate and driftwood etc with boiling water and/or powerful cleaning chemicals and let it all dry out for a week then start again.

However since the other fish in your display tank currently all seem OK and rebuilding a tank from scratch is no easy task at the best of times, why not try to salvage what you can first, knowing that if it fails you can always 'fall back' on the more thorough complete start-from-scratch method.

And you never know, you may win this war!

Regards,

Greggy

[Andrew Soh]

Just curious guys.....what is "Nuke"?

I couldn't find the meaning in the dict. Is it a slang?

Thanks ....ha!ha!ha!

Andrew :wink:

[shawn barker]

Thanks for your input Andrew and I even understand the point that you are making, but unfortunately I don't have the logistics ie. enough tanks at home to do all this!

I've been advised by some discus specialist in the UK that I should be OK treating the sick fish in a smaller tank with Furanol, as I'm doing, and then reintroducing them back to the display tank when (or if, as I lost another one last night) they are well as they should have built up an immunity to what ever the pathogen is that is the cause of the problem. I'm even considering looking for a UV unit now to help prevent another outbreak like this happening, in your opinion, is this worthwhile?

I think, due to incorrect advice from the LFS where I bough the 3 new Discus that triggered this outbreak, if I had acted faster and not trusted their opinion that it will clear up on its own in a few days I could have saved more BUT "you live and learn".

Shawn

[Andrew Soh]

Yes Shawn,

Yes ...you can do that to save the day....nothing is better than the simple way of doing things.....it is your choice...ok....... but just be careful...

And it is a good idea to buy a UV ...but make sure you buy a good one and maintain it well every month to ensure clarity and effectiveness.

Sorry if my suggestions seem troublesome...that is because I am once the largest breeder of discus in Singapore...and I have access to all raw drugs and chemicals....and when there is a problem...we cannot wait and see and study for weeks on end.

We have to see..... go in......bang, bang...and come out .....making sure they recover.. ...If not...our investment is gone...they don't recover...we cannot recover our investment.

In other words, with more than 1000 discus tanks, it is a matter of either they recover or we die.

Take care buddy,.....still want to know what is "NUKE" :) :)

Andrew :wink:

[the german]

hi andrew NUKE is slang for kill everything,in this one he mean everything in the tank,i think it comes from nuclear weapons.

michael

[Andrew Soh]

Thanks Michael,

For explaining....now I understand.

Take care,
Andrew :wink:

[gfindura]

The German! Oh no! Haha, kidding, Michael!

Yeah, I was referring to just completely killing everything in the tank by saying "nuke" it. Bang bang! It's short for nuclear--not "new-cue-lar" as our wonderful (cough, cough) president pronounces it.

I always forget about the slang edicate on online forums--as people on here are from all over the world. A lot of people don't know all the U.S. slang and, for me, the New Jersey slang. If you watch the Sopranos, you'll get a little education in that, though.

Anyway, keep us posted as to your progress, Shawn. I'm hoping the rest of your fish pull through okay.


-Greg

[shawn barker]

Just a quick update for you all.

It now looks like the 3 Discus in my hospital tank are going to pull through as they are all up and swimming around and are even eating now. Shall leave them in there for about another week and reintroduce them back to the display tank and take things from there. In total I lost 5 out of my 13 Discus due to this mystery illness, thankfully, on good advice from another party, the Furanol treatment worked and I still have plenty left that I'm hoping I won't need to use.

I'm still trying to pursuade Denise to let me get a UV steriliser to help reduce the risk of another outbreak in the future.

Thanks again for the advice from you all

Shawn