Hydra's Monsters of the Deep

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi,

A mate of mine has been wondering for months why he has been losing loads of his newly hatched catties, costing him a small fortune and just about driving him nuts. Eventually we found out it was Hydra. I have never experienced these little terrors but on doing a fair bit of research found they are amazing little creatures and pretty deadly to fry and some small fish.

We found all sorts of ways of supposedly getting rid of them from electrocution to PP to Hydrogen Peroxide and quite a few others. Then there was one paper that suggested Fenbendazole, a fairly old worming treatment for fish. We thought we'd go for that one first as he needed to worm his fish anyway and if it didn't work at least he'd achieve something. It works! Within 45 minutes the Hydra started to keel over and the next morning they were all dead so for anyone that has problems with these hungry little critters give Fenbendazole a go.
MAC

[Ben]

Hi Mac,

excellent info and thanks for the heads up!

I wonder if there is some sort of fish/creature that will eat hydra?

I know there is a similar pest in marine tanks and a type of salt water shrimp will eat it.

Cheers
Ben

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Ben,

The 3 Spotted Gourami is the only fish that I could find documented to eat Hydra. They really are nasty little buggars!
MAC

[scott bowler]

mac is there any pics of what this little bugger looks like ?

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Scott,

Here's a photo of one (Photo: Jan Parmentier, Netherlands). They are quite incredible creatures and go back thousands of years. If you think of a rubber glove you just about describe a Hydra. Every time you split them they will reproduce twice as many. The way they breed is also real interesting as they are Asexual at certain times of the year but also reproduce as male and females normally do.

When they grow in numbers they will sting small fry to the extent that they die and they have been seen holding small fish in their tentacles eating them. As far as my mate's concerned we wondered for a long time why his young Albino B/N fry would never graze on the bottom of his tanks. I know now, buggared if I'd be down there either with these things hanging around. If you do a Google on Hydra there's a host of imformation on them.

In the photo below you'll see 3 trunks, that's Asexual reproduction at work as the 2 side trunks will break free and become adult Hydra. You can also see very long tentacles at the top, these are very poisonous to fish when they get stung. They anchor themselves to the bottom or side of the tank and wait for prey to come swimming by.
MAC

[wickedglass]

small betta will also eat hydra, especially if they're pre-adult fish.
thank you for your info on the fenbendazole!
now the question is, where does one get fenbendazole from? I've got hydra in one of my apisto breeding tanks and while the apistos cover the rims of the flowerpots (and therefore the hydra growing there) there's still quite some attrition going on due to hydra in different parts of the tank.

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Chris,

I think you will find Fenbendazole at most vet's. If you can't find it give me a hoy and I can always organise some for you through our vet up here.
MAC

[scott bowler]

yeah i will thanks LR

[scott bowler]

thanks mac intresting little guy ha , so bad so strange

[fishgeek]

i cant find fenbendazol on any of the online pharmacy site in australia
it is available through the supermarke in england and i thought maybe similar in aus

flubendazol is the same family and is used as a poultry wormer , it may be available at farm store? not sure but worth a look

andrew

mac if you are happy using this product then dont use levamisole anymore as they have similar spectrum of action

alos to all those worried about protozoan this product should be effective against them aswell

no it doesnt do tapeworm

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Andrew,

On some of the American papers we read when looking for Hydra solutions the name used was Flubendazol but here what we were given was Fenbendazol. I have a lot more reading to do on the drug yet but a mate of mine rang me last night and said it will cover alot more than we originally thought. He mentioned flukes and quite a few other things but I'm not sure whether that was scientific information or off Jo Blow on the net but it looks very promising.

Incidentally have you found those worms yet :lol: ? If my mate's catties are anything to go by it does work. He hadn't wormed his fish for 12 months and yesterday morning he had dead worms all over the bottom of his tanks.
Cheers
MAC

[Kingkat]

Mac, I emailed you a short paper on this drug signed off by a Doctor which covered more problems than hydra.
Cheers,
David.

[mistakes r crucial]

Got it thanks David.
MAC

[mistakes r crucial]

no it doesnt do tapeworm

Hi Andrew,

David (Kingkat) kindly emailed me a paper on Flubendazole by Charles H. Harrison, Ph. D. He states that Flubendazole will take care of most worms including tape worm and much to my surprise, gill flukes. If this drug has such a broad spectrum and has minimal negative affects on our fish I wonder why on earth we have not heard much about it before now. I suppose good things come to those who wait!
Cheers
MAC
PS Thanks David, much appreciated.

[Kingkat]

Mac, I have just been conversing with the manufacturer of Flubenol 15 which is the website I sent you a link to, it seems like a really good product and very widely used through Europe as in the UK they need a prescription for Prazi. Maybe Wayne and Bec could look at trying to bring it in. Apparently there are some issues with the med that is sold for stock use in regards to solvents etc.
Cheers,
David.

[Kingkat]

Mac, I questioned Paul regarding it's use with catfish, loaches etc and following is his exact qoute:
David, Flubenol 15 is safe for any fish, it cannot kill fish full stop, as flubendazole works by starving the parasites to death with no effect on the fish - it's been used in the trade in the UK for 20 years and to my knowledge not one fish has died as a direct result of it's usage including freshwater rays. Infact one of the largest importers in Europe gets through several kg's of it per month. The dosing rate is 1 gram per 25 UKgallons. It sells over here for 33 pounds sterling for a 2000 UK gallon pack.
Mac, there is an additive in the Flubenol 15 which was developed in conjunction with one of the University's to assist in the uptake of the med through the gils and skin. If flubenazole is for sale in Australia I don't see why Flubenol 15 could not be brought in.
Cheers,
David.

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi David,

I've sent you a PM but I agree, on the face of it if it's OK in Europe the chances are it's OK here. However, we do have some of the stictest laws on earth when it comes to imports of any kind let alone drugs. I might contact the department that issued my import license and see what the go is.
MAC

[Ben]

Just out of interest, whats the largest fry size hyrda wil eat?

[mistakes r crucial]

Don't really know Ben but I think it depends on the size of the Hydra. There have been reports seeing them holding "small fish" which I would presume means a Tetra or something similar in size. Apparently Hydra grow to 12mm and their tentacles, from the look of them, are 2-3 times longer than their body so quite a formidable apponent.
MAC

[ozarowana]

I've looked at using this stuff for flukes aswell. According to Dieter Untergasser it will kill the fluke eggs aswell.

There is a topic on another forum which reports side effects such as loss of balance, head and tail standing in discus.

MAC, does it come in liquid or powder? The active ingredient is said to be insoluable in water and needs a solvent such as acetone. Did your mate just add it to the tank?

[fishgeek]

fenbendazol, flubendazol,mebendazol and levamisol(i think?) are all antehelminthics of the benzimidol group

mac you are aware of levamisol and have seen effects that i do not have documneted, just beware of claims of no side effects
in my experience anthing that really doesnt have side effects has no effects at all

none of this family are 100% effective tapewormers
yes they do cover some of the families within the tape worm group and defintiely not all of them
prehaps the tapeworms that affect fish are only from these small groups.. i think therein lies the problem.. we dont know..


fenbendazol has a severe intoxication recorded in pigeons with 50% mortality!!!
fenbendazol maybe hepatoxic?! we dont evenly fully understand it's mechanism of action as yet

general safety issue's with most wormers are because of poor intestinal absorbtion so that when placed in a mammals intestinal tract it stays there.. effectively only treating gastrointestinal parasites and not affecting the host animal
if placed in water , and lets just say, absorbed via the gills into the blood stream then the situation could be dramatically different (all hypothetical and maybe even just plain wrong)

i am not aware of work to asses the pharmocodynamics as yet, then i dont subscribe to any of the research/aquaculture literature and just play at this for my own interest

i'm not trying to be negative about any of these products
in fact i have been messing with fenbedazol in my own fish for a while now
flubendazol isnt available easily in the uk and i feel that australia has similar prescription laws

fenbendazol is available without prescription in the uk and i have looked at a few australian online dispensary's and not seen it available there, maybe that it is prescription only ?


charles harrison is involved in all the levamisol work that is about on the net , he also states that fenbendazo is adsrobed across the gills, see my above point
fenbendazol is known to have teratogenic metabolites (oxfenbendazol)

my experiences with it orally have been innocuous , though as mac is aware i have no worms to treat at present

andrew

[fishgeek]

oh may i see the article aswell

andrew

[Noddy65]

Ive enquired about flubenol in Aus. I was wanting it treat hydra.
As far as I know its a restricted drug here and is really difficult to get.
Im a vet and the drug companies we deal with havent even heard of it.
It is available in NZ as far as Im aware but needs to be imported under licence.

If this is all wrong then please set me straight as Id love to get my hands on some flubenole.

Id also love a copy of the papaer.

Mike

[ozarowana]

Just to clarify I was talking about flubendazole.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLvU0MM5_fc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxBo3ovHC3k

Just read people have killed discus with fludendazole. It was also stated that fenbendazole should only be used in feed, where as flubendazole can be used in water as well as in feed.

Fenbendazole can be purchased over the counter here under the trade name Panacur.

[fishgeek]

if any one speaks german then prehaps the german datz author's or similar hobbyist groups in germany would be a good starting point for possibly some more reliable information


my first issue with the internet(when starting using fish forums) was/still is the almost total lack of understanding that products dose's should be displayed/communicated in mgs of the active products and that parent compounds often varying in there percentage of this product

andrew

[Kingkat]

It's all good and well for people to say they killed discus with whatever medication but how do we know they dosed accurately and didn't mix it with other meds etc etc?
Cheers,
David.

[fishgeek]

speaking with others who i respect
tail standing does seem to be a side effect of flubendazol

andrew

[Kingkat]

Andrew, If you respect them enough to know that they would be dosing properly that is good information. Are they using Flubenol 15 which is apparently the only one in UK specified for Aquatic use or are they using normal Flubendazol? Here the information I have been given is for Fenbendazole and I was particularly wanting it for my catfish as I am happy to use Praziquantel on the discus.
Cheers,
David.

[fishgeek]

david as i said before fenbendazol is not effective against all tape worm
i have no literature for what species are present in catfish nor other fish for that matter

in mammals i would guess fenbendazol only picks up 70% of the tapeworm

i also think that if i am reading your 'paul quotes' right then some of his information isnt accurate - the exact mechanism of action for this family of drugs is not fully understood
it is thought that it does act through the microtubules of cellular metabolism(starving the parasite to death- may just be a hugh simplification) if this is the case it can also affect the host cells in a similar way
prehaps the tail standing is to some degree related to paralysis of the host fish

as i wrote before under the fenbendazol/flubendazol/mebendazol grouped heading , intestinal absorbtion of these products in mammals is poor and so allows for a very good safety level

once we start saying that the active molecule cross the gill blood membrane and is ' in the fish' so to speak , it could certainly affect the host cells

flubendazol(or flubenol 15) has to be the same thing just somebodies trade name for the drug is a prescription medication in england
it was only availble from my drug supplier as a soluble powder for in water medication of poultry
i am not aware of whether the people whom have seen tail standing were use's a particular manufacturers brand or not
i may be able to get some more information from another vet in london

by the way does anyone know what charles harrisons phd is in? anytjhing at all related to his fish keeping hobby?

andrew

[mistakes r crucial]

I think he has a Phd in Basketball :lol: Fenbendazole has been used on catfish here over the last week, it is soluble in water and has no apparent side affects whatsoever, or at least none that we can see right now. What it has done is get rid of millions of Hydra, successfully wormed them for thread and round worms and within 48 hours fish that hadn't spawned for 8-12 weeks had eggs everywhere.

We are about to do trials on Discus over the next few days so will keep you posted but at this stage, I am impressed with what we've read it will achieve. The Discus will be the litmus test for me but if there are not too many side affects I'll take it a few steps further.

Andrew, how can I give Discus culls Hex, gill flukes and callamanus all at the same time, I think I need some of your London water :lol:

PS Flubenol 15 is only 50% Fenbendazole, the company that has developed it has (apparently) added something to it to help take up of the med via the gills and skin.
MAC

[Noddy65]

That great that Fenbendazole is effective against hydra.
What dose rate were you using and what was the concentration of the drug?
Also what was the commercial name of the drug you are using.
Id like to try it in my apisto tanks to see if i can get rid of hydra.

Thanks
Mike

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Noddy,

Not my tanks but it was Panacur and 2ml per 100 litres of water. He was advised to leave it in there for 24 - 48 hours but we've found that leaving it there for 3 days has a better hit rate.
MAC

[Noddy65]

Do you know what concentration the Pancur was...I think it comes in at least 2 strengths?

Mike

[samir]

what was the active amount 100gm/litre ??

[Kingkat]

From the information Mac gave me the Panacur his mate used was indeed 100gm/lt. Also the other ingredient in Flubenol 15 is also supposed to have a hormonal effect and stimlate spawning in some hard to spawn fish.
Cheers,
David.

[Noddy65]

Panacur from memory comes as Panacur 2.5 or Panacur 10. There may be others of course.

Mike

[Kingkat]

Mike, The one I got from my vet is thae same as Mac's mate got: 100gm/lt
Cheers,
David.

[Noddy65]

Great thanks...Ill talk to my drug rep tomorrow.
Thanks for the info guys.
Mike

[ozarowana]

Looks like the smallest volume Panacur100 comes in is 1L for around $100, unless the vet will sell it in smaller quantities.

The Panacur25 might be a better option at around $35 for 1L, as you will probably never use the whole Panacur100 bottle.

[ozarowana]

Flubenol 15 is only 50% Fenbendazole

I thought Flubenol was flubendazole and not fenbendazole.

[fishgeek]

I thought Flubenol was flubendazole and not fenbendazole.

so did i! :shock:
i think mac has been drinking while he types :D


what does the panacur you are usng look like?
a suspension? i have been wary of this becasue of some horror story i heard before i engaged my own mind.. now i dont listen too uch until i can find out for certain myself

panacur granules are approx 22% and are touted on discus page holland as being very useful, fred goodall there has used this product in it's american form(still i think 22% fenbendazol)

mac i wish my water was disease, as you are aware i have been trying panacur chewable dog wormers orally to my fish, i know it doesnt kill them
but i havent got anything to treat to say it works
maybe a trip to that local fish shop that smells of bad water as you walk in and since you lost half your tank to a new non quarantined acquition(prehaps even twice) you havent visited again

anyone able to give me a supplier name for this supposed uk based flubenol sales agent so i can try and track some veterinary info down

andrew

[mistakes r crucial]

Correct on both counts. :lol: It is Flu not Fen. Gave you the Flubenol contact in aother post Andrew. www.flubenol.co.uk

[fishgeek]

at a quick glance a lot of the information on that site is purely sales speak

or can i just say it's lie's?

andrew

[Pauluk]

at a quick glance a lot of the information on that site is purely sales speak

or can i just say it's lie's?

andrew

You could, but would you be right and would you be open to libel??

[Kingkat]

Andrew, I have spoken to Paul from Flubenol 15 and he sells heaps in Europe apparently one of the biggest wholesalers buys a couple of kg's off him per month. Websites normally talk it up but.
Cheers,
David.

[Kingkat]

Correction the manufacturer sell's direct to the importers I was just advised by Paul.
Cheers,
David.

[Pauluk]

Correct on both counts. :lol: It is Flu not Fen. Gave you the Flubenol contact in aother post Andrew. www.flubenol.co.uk

Heres a link to the VMD http://www.vmd.gov.uk/ and just in case you want to speak to them, their number is 01932 336911


mac i wish my water was disease, as you are aware i have been trying panacur chewable dog wormers orally to my fish, i know it doesnt kill them
Thats also illegal to do in this country as you would see if you had read the info on the site Mac had posted ;)

[Merrilyn]

It is also illegal to use a prescribed, restricted or over the counter medication on any animal it is not approved or prescribed for. Using a pig wormer on fish is illegal, using metro prescribed for sheep on fish is illegal. and the penalties are very high. With the exception of vetinary supervision on non food animals where a degree of freedom in the choice of medicines is allowed.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Paul, the above is a direct quote from the Flubenol site.

I'm not sure if you are aware that Andrew (fishgeek) is a qualified veterinarian, and thus his use of panacure chewable dog wormer is well within the stated guidelines.

[Pauluk]

It is also illegal to use a prescribed, restricted or over the counter medication on any animal it is not approved or prescribed for. Using a pig wormer on fish is illegal, using metro prescribed for sheep on fish is illegal. and the penalties are very high. With the exception of vetinary supervision on non food animals where a degree of freedom in the choice of medicines is allowed.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Paul, the above is a direct quote from the Flubenol site.

It is :)


I'm not sure if you are aware that Andrew (fishgeek) is a qualified veterinarian, and thus his use of panacure chewable dog wormer is well within the stated guidelines.

I wasnt aware that he was a vet no, and his posts also didn't come across as some one who is scientifically minded as i would expect a vet to be.
In that case its not illegal as he is treating the fish directly as a qualified vet

[Merrilyn]

Welcome to the forum Paul.

Just wanted it to be clear that we do not encourage the breaking of any laws.

Your input is appreciated :P

[Pauluk]

One of the reasons why Andrew doesnt know anything about this product is because it is hand made by one person in the UK. It is manufactured in a clinical lab and is approved and regulated by the VMD, the uk governing body on vetinary medicines and not available to vets (would be good it was as I would be rich until the guy that makes it found out ;) )

[Noddy65]

My understanding is that Flubenol isnt available in Aus...can anyone confirm this.

As to the illegallity of using meds...well its a bit hazzy at the edges.

Off label use is Ok as long as it is 'known' to be general practice. However it is used at the risk of the vet and client. This makes sense as no drug comppany is going to go through the process of approving drugs for all animals, its just not worth their while (ie its an expensive process).
If there is an issue and a problem happens then as long as the vet can prove that the off label use is a 'general' practice then they are safe if pulled up before the Vet Surgeons Board or any other legal issue.

Mike

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Noddy,

Flubenol 15 is not available here right now and neither is Flubendazole. I have just sent a fax to my vet asking if it is possible to get Flubendazole as from the information I've seen it is reported to treat Hex as well as many other parasites. No big deal I 'spose as we can always use Metro but I've always found Metro very expensive with the amount of water I run. Thankfully I haven't had to use it in a very long time but it would be good to get hold of something that is so flexible and inexpensive.
MAC

[Noddy65]

Hi MAC.
Ive already chased Flubendazole in Aus and its not available. NZ may be a source.

Mike

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Noddy,

Getting it in here legally is going to be the problem.
MAC

[Noddy65]

Yep...that can be a problem.

Mike

[samir]

I wasnt aware that he was a vet no, and his posts also didn't come across as some one who is scientifically minded as i would expect a vet to be.

:shock: :shock: I think quite the opposite, he sounds exactly like a vet :lol: I agree with his opinion on the website, there's nothing concrete there :P

[Pauluk]

How concrete would you like it? its approved by the VMD for sale over the counter as stated on the instructions and on their site.
He did sound professional right up until the point where the word lies was used......

If you think its maybe dodgy or illegal, would it a banner here
http://tropicalfish.site5.com/tfc/index.php?

or here

http://www.corydorasworld.com/

or sold by amongst others, on these site.....

Some how I doubt it ;)

http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=flubenol
One of the best tropical tank plant sites.

http://discus-south.com/medications.htm
One of the top discus sites around

http://www.atlantisaquatics.co.uk/acatalog/Flubenol.html
another top online shop

[Pauluk]

I sent the link to this thread to the manufacturer of Flubenol 15 and his reply for me to post is below.......


If the man is indeed a vet he would know what flubenol was and would be his med of choice over panacur...........................and would have access to both in their base forms.

We are in the UK and have a trades description act which is pushed hard by the Trading Standards Department, if fishgeek wants to complain to them, please let him excercise his right so to do, but be prepared for the consequences of taking such action.

I have had years of blanket negativity from people claiming to work for this government body, or are qualified in this field or whatever, trying to put down what the average genuine hobbyist is trying to acheive. I'm a marine biologist and research chemist/scientist and have been using flubenol 15 which I developed with the DVA some 20 years ago for fish use, it's only now available otc to comply with the regs that the VMD have to enforce because of a European ruling, and is the only way I can continue using it as I have been.

I'm not here to make money out of unsuspecting aquarists as has been hinted at, manufacturing Flubenol 15 is a service not a money making part of my business, the legal support I have as part of a business package I subscribe to, is of the opinion that those that don't understand the functioning of Flubenol 15 should either back up their evidence or expect litigation, we are all entitled to our opinions but to make blanket statements that aren't based on fact is completely out of order and not to be expected from someone claiming to be a vet, and I'm sure the comments would be taken as unprofessional by that persons regulatory body if they were to see them......

This is not a threatening pose, if such negative comments are allowed to proliferate it can only stop people from moving the aquatic field forward, isn't it easy to be negative when you've never achieved anything substantive in your life???????? I've tolerated idiotic comments for too many years now, and take positive action against such comments these days as its the only constructive way to clear the hobby of idiots.

[Kingkat]

You go you good thing!
Cheers,
David.

[samir]

can you give me a link for a publication in a peer reviewed journal ?

[Pauluk]

can you give me a link for a publication in a peer reviewed journal ?

As it was developed essentially for private use in conjunction with the DVA so it was never needed to be submitted for peer review.
Now licenced in the UK by the Governing body for vetinary medicines as stated above it still does not need to be reviewed.
Just to get a licence in this country is difficult enough, you will note that their is no other wormer available over here to use, does that not say anything to you??????

[DiscusEden]

you will note that their is no other wormer available over here to use

Over where Pauluk? Where are you from?

[Pauluk]

you will note that their is no other wormer available over here to use

Over where Pauluk? Where are you from?

Sorry, the Uk

[Noddy65]

Oh dear...if fishgeek is indeed a vet (and yes he is) he is behaving EXACTLY how vets are trained to behave.
We NEVER believe what the company blurbs say, particularly those on the web.
We ALWAYS try and find independant science regarding the efficacy of particular drugs.
Comapny blurbs can be so much used car salesman stuff, they all have a vested interest (ie theyre trying to sell their products).
There are way too many dangerous examples of people blindly following company advertising and 'research' results.

Independant research and scepticism is ALWAYS the way to go.

Thankyou
Mike

[Pauluk]

Independant research and scepticism is ALWAYS the way to go.

Mike

Thats why I added the VMD phone numer and website and the links :)

I would be pretty stupid to openly sell something illegal as would all the other people that sell it

[Noddy65]

I agree...Ill have to check out the site tomorrow although its a mute point really for the Aussies here as its illegal to buy in this country.

Mike

[samir]

thanks for the link.
here is the link for Products Marketed Under the Small Animal Exemption Scheme
http://www.vmd.gov.uk/ProductInfo/AuthMed/Schedule_6.pdf
I cannot find any reference to Flubenol 15. I did find some of the usual culprits, malachite green, methylene blue etc.

so I went through all the approved medications and I found
Flubenol 50% Premix
Flubenol Individual Treatment Pack
Flubenol Premix
Flubenvet
Flubenol Easy
Flubenol Easy Cat
Flubenol Easy Paste
all manufactured by Janssen Cilag Ltd

Here is a link for the Flubenol Trade Mark registered by Johnson & Johnson which owns Janssen Cilag Ltd
http://www.patent.gov.uk/tm/t-find/t-find-number?detailsrequested=C&trademark=1086448

could you point me to where your product is mentioned in Products Marketed Under the Small Animal Exemption Scheme or anywhere else in any list of approved medications on the Veterinary Medicines Directorate website. Also in layman terms how a trade mark registered by someone else can be used by another company ?

Oh and one last thing, a small error on the website, its not vetinary, its veterinary.

[Pauluk]

I guess if its illegal, the phone call I just made to the VMD was a dream then ;)
I just checked with enforcments there, who I am on first name terms with..... and also spoke to the man in charge of export laws...
I/we can post flubenol 15 to any county we want, the only problem would be with the person at the other end.

From the manufacturer


Vets are professionals, and as such KNOW they can't state something is a lie without their own proof, it's the same as me stating fishgeek is NOT a vet, without checking first, so I can say in the least he is totaly unprofessional, and his conduct would not be acceptable to the professional body to which he belongs.

On that note isn't it time some people grew up and tested things before saying everything is a lie, there are laws governing conduct, and whatever fishgeeks feelings may be he should think before stating something that IS NOT fact!!!!!!


I will be posting a copy of the VMD approval letter shortly to end all this squabbling, as frankly its a little childish....

[samir]

I don't need a letter, just the link to where it is mentioned on the site. Every single veterinary medication approved for use in the United Kingdom is listed there. Why can I not find Flubenol 15 and why are you using someone else's trademark ?

[fishgeek]

ooh looks like things are a little touchy :D

personally i am not at all bothered by the legality or profit or any of those things

i dont think i ever suggested i was interested in them
i just want to know whether it does work - i think that is how this thread came to be , hobbyists wanting an effective and safe medication for the fish


samir i believe that intervet (one of the drug companies in the uk) applied for flubendazol to be removed from the list(exempt) for use in rabbits, and then i think granville hammond at devon discus subsequently applied
i do believe that flubendazol is now the only benzimidazol anthelminthic no longer on the prescription list, prehaps that is not yet reflected on the web site?

that leaves the problem that it is no longer regulated by scientific proof and so no need for the peer reviewed or even tested in the species that claims are being made for, as far as i am aware a licence for the product doesnt need to be held if it off list or non prescription
basically it has been decided it is safe enough to need less regulation

any adverse reactions to the medication though are legally required to be submitted so that some monitoring is supposed to occur

what i do want to know is about efficacy of the medication

and thats where some peer reviewed evidence on the claims made would be great
paulak are you able to provide any evidence to support the claims
of

[/list]"Flubenol 15 is safe with ALL tropical or freshwater fish at any strength" to me that reads like it can not be overdosed
have you any data from testing in all fish species or is this claim based on ancedotal evidence?

"Flubenol 15 is beneficial to your filter" how exactly does it aid filter function

"A side effect of this ingredient is that it increases the leutenising hormone levels within the fish, upping the production of eggs and sperm as an end product and can induce spawning in many species."
is anyone happy to disclose this ingredient?
and my vague recollection of LH was that it induced ovulation but had no effect on increasing production nor maturation of ova, i do not profess to be a aquaculture vet nor a reproductive vet so i'm stretching my memory at this point

These side effects are an added bonus of the chemicals to allow Flubenol work efficiently and none can do your fish or filter any harm.

no harm ? is that in all water compositions
my brain is now programmed to think if no harm can be done with a substance then no good can be done either
i do know that flubendazol can do some good in some species what i would like to know is exactly how much good it can do in fish and what potential side effects it may have


andrew pollock
bog standard old gp vet with no special fish education just an interest in my hobby

paulak may i ask who you are ?
and are you happy to disclose whether you are involved with flubenol.co.uk or granville hammond at devon discus?

respectfully
andrew

[samir]

i do believe that flubendazol is now the only benzimidazol anthelminthic no longer on the prescription list, prehaps that is not yet reflected on the web site?


the website was last updated on the 7th of February 2007.

Is Flubenol 15 supposed to contain Flubendazole or Flubenol as the active ingredient ? Here's from the website ...

"Does Flubenol 15 contain copper and what is the active ingredient?
No, Flubenol 15 contains no copper, the active ingredient is Flubenol at 15%"

As far as I know the only thing that will completely kill gill flukes is a product called Supaverm . From what I've heard Flubendazole is not the first choice of treatment for flukes or tapeworms. Also the only people who can legaly use the name Flubenol are Jannsen Animal Health, unless the manufacturer of Flubenol 15 has permission from them or there's something in the law I do not know about.

[fishgeek]

here's a rumour i have heard

the product is just chicken, in water, medication containing flubendazol 50% mixed and resold in new packaging
just a rumour !

i thought that flubenol was just a trade name for flubendazol and as such no product can contain(as an ingredient) flubenol

andrew

[samir]

i thought that flubenol was just a trade name for flubendazol

which only Jannsen Animal Health can use. Jannsen Animal Health is a subsidiary of Jannsen Cilag Ltd which is owned by Johnson & Johnson, who have the following trade mark registered in the United Kingdom...
http://www.patent.gov.uk/tm/t-find/t-find-number?detailsrequested=C&trademark=1086448

I did hear the phrase "open to libel" crop up somewhere along the line . Didn't I ?

Ah they changed it to 15% flubendazole :lol: :lol: that was quick, good to see that veterinary is now spelled right.

[Pauluk]

i thought that flubenol was just a trade name for flubendazol

which only Jannsen Animal Health can use. Jannsen Animal Health is a subsidiary of Jannsen Cilag Ltd which is owned by Johnson & Johnson, who have the following trade mark registered in the United Kingdom...
http://www.patent.gov.uk/tm/t-find/t-find-number?detailsrequested=C&trademark=1086448

I did hear the phrase "open to libel" crop up somewhere along the line . Didn't I ?

Ah they changed it to 15% flubendazole :lol: :lol: that was quick, good to see that veterinary is now spelled right.

Thanks for the tip on the copyright and the spellings ;)

I would have replied earlier but I have a life and better things to do....

I own www.flubenol.co.uk and I buy flubenol 15 off Granville Hammond just like all his other customers do, its just that I was the one that got the domain name first. He has nothing to do with me or my site either financialy or personally, it is mine and he gets nothing from it.

[Pauluk]

here's a rumour i have heard

the product is just chicken, in water, medication containing flubendazol 50% mixed and resold in new packaging
just a rumour !


where did you hear that? as a vet, I would have thought you more professional than to spread rumours like that.....

Obviously not though....

[mistakes r crucial]

Just going back to the initial post in this thread, does it kill Hydra, moo haa!

Lighten up guys, it's another product and from what I can see thus far there are quite a few people using it on the forums in the UK. Let's get some feedback from people who are using it before any debate gets too heavy handed. Just my 2 cents.
MAC

[Pauluk]

Just going back to the initial post in this thread, does it kill Hydra, moo haa!

yep ;)

[fishgeek]

it kills hydra

it hasnt been used extensively in the uk, i searched for this product on veterinary drug wholesalers 3 years ago, after reading about it on german site's

there is some concern about toxicity in acidic water with low alkalinity

fenbendazol is considered safer on another discus forum

to my knowledge it does not have a specific licence for use in fish, then nothing does, does it?

paul are you prepared to answer my questions about your web site claims?

i dont want an arguement or slanging match just the truth please


andrew

[Pauluk]

Please get your facts right, again you are wrong..... It has been in use for 20 years, the biggest importers in Europe get through kilos a month of it and its never killed a fish, just because its not on some vets list doesnt mean its not been used, as said it was developed for personal use priarily, but due to the SAES its had to be licenced.
I have to be honest Andy, I really cant be arsed to post anything more, if you want some, email me via the site and you can have a 100 Gall pack for free to try it.
I didnt come on here to try and defend it from a group of people that think they are better than everyone else, especially a vet that should be a little more professional in their opinions and research.
The ph makes no difference, you probably read that on a report where flubenol 5 was used and it was mixed with acetone...

[Noddy65]

There was some research done at Murdoch Uni in Perth on Flubendazole (Flubenol) use in Dew Fish (hope I got the spelling right).
Ill try and dig it up today or it may be available from a Google search.

Mike

[samir]

The ph makes no difference, you probably read that on a report where flubenol 5 was used and it was mixed with acetone...

acetone used with flubenol 5 is 1-1.5 ml per gram. for gill flukes 1 gram of flubenol 5 treats 404 litres so the concentration of acetone once in the aquarium in ml/litre would be .002475 ml to .003712 ml/litre.
Regarding acetone toxicity here's a link for Chemical Toxicity Studies on Aquatic Organisms.
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/List_AquireAll.jsp?Rec_Id=PC34116&offset=100

[Merrilyn]

Keep it civil please gentlemen. :)

Just for the record, Mike (Noddy) is a qualified Vet, and so is Andrew (fishgeek). When we have two professional gentlemen discussing the pros and cons of a product with the distributor, I would expect the discussion to be lively, but please, may I remind all to stay within the bounds of courtesy.

No personal insults will be tolerated.

[fishgeek]

paul can you confirm or deny some other things i have heard

that granville hammond doesnt manufacturer this product, he actually just dilutes 50% flubendazol sourced prehaps intially from south east asia

are you able to provide links to the licence for aquatic use?

if this products has an aquatic use licence then we can individually review the research data that is available for it use in fish

are you able to answer my intial queries on
dose rates or lack of need for dose rates
how it affects biological filtration
how it induces spawning or what component within the medication actually this claim is being attributed to
can you list the actual active ingredients within the product

andrew


mac if you are after some critical review on the use of fenbendazol both andrew soh and fred goodall at DPH have experience with using it for some time
i am not certain that either of them knows of any potential effects against protoza
anyone know which university has the biggest interest in these things?

in my texts stoskopf fish medicine, BSAVA manual of oranmental fish and untergassers handbook of fish medicine , flubendazol is only mentioned in the older text
i dont believe basselers more recent text mentions it either, prehaps someone with access would check for us
acetone is suggested as being safe as a solvent

"Acetone has been used very successfully since 1988 as a well tolerated solvent for flubendazol. All gill and intestinal worms aswell as their egg's are destroyed. Only at 100x normal dosage does acetone become toxic to fish . IT does not leave any unpleasant odours in the vicintiy of the tank. Feeding with flubendazol 5% in feed mix B5 destroys intestinal worms , but re-infection is possible when fish pick up egg'sfrom the bottom"
ref ~ handbook of fish disease 1989 Dieter Untergasser

[Noddy65]

Oops...just checked the paper on flubendazole in dhufish. They only report is as warranting further investigation.
They may not have used it becuase it isnt available in Aus.
Mike

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for that. From the reading I've done Fenbendazole is a good option and we really should have known far more about it in Australia than we have IMO. However, Flubendazole appears to go one or two steps further ie claims to help Spironucleus etc (not scientific papers I might add) but interesting all the same.

On a side issue, I have been using Metho (left overs from our Friday night drinks :lol: ) to break down pure Prazi powder on the advice of a scientist. According to him it is an anaesthetic for fish, is this right? (also a question for Mike and any other vets on the forum)
Cheers
MAC

[Noddy65]

Thats a new one for me.
Andrew is a bit more fish medicine than me...he may be able to help.

Mike

[mistakes r crucial]

No worries Mike, it might be true as I've noticed young Discus swimming upside down and a in a continual figure of 8 for hours after a treatment :wink: :lol: There again that might have been me!
MAC

[samir]

mac if you are after some critical review on the use of fenbendazol both andrew soh and fred goodall at DPH have experience with using it for some time
i am not certain that either of them knows of any potential effects against protoza
anyone know which university has the biggest interest in these things?


Some of the answers are here :monkey
Efficacy of various chemotherapeutic agents on the growth of Spironucleus vortens, an intestinal parasite of the freshwater angelfish
http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/38/d038p047.pdf

[mistakes r crucial]

Samir,

You consistently come up with good reading, thanks.
MAC

[Big G]

Hi,
Firstly I can understand the questions here, let me give you a small amount of background. I was processing 6000 to 7000 discus per month for many years, tank bred and wild. There were often incidences of fluke or other parasite infestations on the fish, all the various meds were tried with various downsides, flubendazole being the only one with none for ME. I got the stuff for my customers and my purposes only, I wasn't trying to market it, and used it for probably over 15 years before the new EU regulations came in prevevnting me from using it as I had been. Several of my customers had the chemical confiscated from them during the introduction of these new regulations. Two of my customers (large wholesalers) used it on all their imports, including rays etc. and NO downsides have ever been seen. To comply with these regulations I had to get the stuff accepted under the small animals exemption scheme, via the VMD, which has been done, just so I can give it to my customers to treat the fish they buy console from me, that I bring in from my farm in Malaysia. I had NEVER intended to market the product, and still don't, I honestly dont have the time or need to do so. It was agreed that I would make it avaialble to anyone who needed it, and this I did, I didn't advertise it in any shape or form, people approached me, and some of them use it and also sell it. Initialy the product contained GABA which many of my colleagues found induced spawning, hence the comment about spawning on Pauls site. The statements on Pauls site are observations from long term users of the product not some dreamt up sales ploy!!!! I will probably not apply for the licence to manufacture as of November this year, as the fees quoted would mean lots of dedicated time just to pay for the fee, I've just given up 400 plus discus tanks as I need more time to give to other interests. There has been no sales pitch from my side EVER to sell Flubenol 15, it was developed purely for my use and at my expene, it now happens to be vailable OTC to comply with the new regulations, nothing more nothing less. Yes I can see if you didn't realise that I personaly have treated more than a million discus with it profilacticaly then the claims might seem far fetched, but they aren't, they are based on many peoples experiences and observation. The childish cracks about me diluting some chicken wormer etc. are completely untrue, and the claims made for the product are based on 20 years experience using it, no one claims it cures baldness or ginger hair, just kills flukes, tapeworms etc. which it does 100% at the strength it is sold at. I'm certainly not trying to sell anyone anything, I don't want the aggro of having to produce more, I certainly don't have to defend it against the gay jibes from those that haven't tried it. As on other forums where its efficiency has been doubted, I've offered it free to those doubters, but have never come accross a board where vets have made such inane and immature comments before, yes I expect some doubting, but as I've said, I'm qualified in my own right, and see and treat more discus in a week than you will probably see in your own lifetime, so please accept the product works and does what is stated, again I'm just here to defend it, not to convince you to use it, but please have the decency to try it before saying it cant/doesn't work, that would be unprofessional for a child to say let alone someone qualified. I'm saying no more, just hope some of you can feel shamed, the product was developed at my expense for aquarists, I do not make money from it, I'm just complying with the regulations that have been forced on me, nothing more. I would willingly have given some 2000 gallon packs away at my expense for you to trial, but quite honestly such negativity can only build unpleasantness, I'll leave having put the facts straight, cheers Granville

[viobank]

Hi Ben,

The 3 Spotted Gourami is the only fish that I could find documented to eat Hydra. They really are nasty little buggars!
MAC

or you can connect 2 wires to a 12v battery,then place one of them to the right side of the tank and the other to the left for aprox. five hours...and hidras will die :lol:

[fishgeek]

a few more links on flubendazol

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=9745716&itool=iconabstr&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=9653458&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=9745715&query_hl=6&itool=pubmed_docsum


this shows that some fluke species are not sensitive to flubendazol, that flubendazol is probably not effective against protozoa nor fenbendazol (there goes that hope then) that ichtyobodo is not sensitive
and that some tapeworm species are(including echinococcus - which i wasnt aware)

and granville how do you know i was bald ginger and gay?

[Pauluk]

I am amazed samir didn't pull you on this one, its flubendazole, not flubendazol ;)

[samir]

I am amazed samir didn't pull you on this one, its flubendazole, not flubendazol ;)

*Admin Edit - contents of post removed*

*Please refer to my previous post.*

[mistakes r crucial]

or you can connect 2 wires to a 12v battery,then place one of them to the right side of the tank and the other to the left for aprox. five hours...and hidras will die :lol:

Considered that one but didn't like the idea of pure Hydrogen bubbles flying around whilst the mate was holding the batteries in place with a fag in his mouth. Have you ever seen cartoon characters make holes in walls and ceilings? He has and visualised it whilst considering that option, "can you throw me my leg please!"
MAC

[oscar]

So,

For thos of us who live is Australia is Panacur the best option for getting rid of hydra (at the moment).

If so, what Panacur product is best, and where do i get it from, vet or chemist?

Thanks...

By the way i have also read that a product called "Fluke Tabs" by a company Aquarium Porducts wipes them out quickly.

Do fluke meds in general kill them?

[Kingkat]

Oscar, I suggest you have a read of the thread in the Emergency Room regarding Panacur. It's not good at all, Mac suffered a complete and total loss of really top quality stock.

[mistakes r crucial]

If you're going to use it make sure all fish are out of the tank first. I've just had another confirmation about Panacur from someone on this forum. They used it on a cull tank at the same dosage rates we did and the majority of the fish were dead within a few days with the exact same symptoms. It aint good in water. Where do you think your Hydra came from? You haven't bought catfish recently by any chance.

To my knowledge Prazi won't kill Hydra. You can get Panacur either from your vet or the larger farm supply outlets. If you Google Hydra you'll find all sorts of remedies from electrocution through to salt though generally they reckon a 2 or 3 pronged attack is the way to go. We've had the guys from the DPI up here recently and they said that once you have them they are difficult to irradicate as catfish especially eat the Hydra eggs, release them in feces and away goes the cycle again. If you're not on a system be careful not to pass them from tank to tank.
MAC

[oscar]

I've been away from the forum for a while and am just catching up on a few things.

I presume you are tying Mac's recent catastrophic loss to the use of Panacur. I had missed the link.

I can't figure out where i got the Hydra either. I haven't put new fish or plants in the tank for about 6 months.

The fish get fed Hikari bloodworms, and LR's beefheart mix that i prepare at home.

So, is there a fish and plant friendly method for killing them. I'd prefer not to have to deconstruct the tank if possible, however if thats what has to be done, then so be it.

[stingingrays]

I'm just here to show you some pics of the hydra what was in my tank

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/Alligatorgars/Discus/DSCN0622.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/Alligatorgars/Discus/DSCN0625.jpg

[mistakes r crucial]

Man you've been feeding them well. Not sure if it's the photography (excellent by the way) but they look like the biggest I've ever seen. Hope they're not in the tank with the Tetra's or you just might have a few go missing.
MAC

[Merrilyn]

Fantastic photos. Thanks.

[rudij]

Interesting thread... I know its a few days old now but... In the past when I was hatching my own Brine shrimp it was not uncommon to find hydra in the hatching tank. Now this may be a different critter but the fact they show up in a tank that was purchased brand new and just used to raise baby brine indicates they may have the ability to lay dormant or atleast lay dormant eggs till a time when certain conditions are met... IE water of a certain temp??

Just a thought.

Rudi

[Noddy65]

Did we decide on a dose rate for Panacur (Fenbendazole) for killing hydra.I gather that it would be best to remove any fish if possible (actually i think this is mandatory when using fenbendazole).
Any ideas on how long the Panacur needs to be in the tank to have an effect?

Mike

[mistakes r crucial]

48 hours should do the trick Mike and manadatory is the word. 2ml per 100 litres is the dosage.
MAC