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  1. #1
    Eternal Moderator Merrilyn's Avatar
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    Andrew Soh on treating Velvet disease (oodinium) in discus.

    I asked Andrew for his comments on treating discus with Velvet, and he was kind enough to offer the following advice.

    There are 2 methods. The first one is to use Copper Sulphate and it must be chelated either with acidic acid or some others. These are all quite unsafe as it is not very stable after a day or two and may become toxic especially in soft water. Best to use the proprietory ones (prepared by manufacturer as it is chelated with a secret formula....I also like to know what they use..he!he!)

    The safest and the best method is to use long bath with salt. The dose is 2 ppt(200gm per 100liter of water) for one month and by the next month, every one of the oodinium will be gone forever....believe me.
    Whenever you change water, add back the same dose or concentration.

    ***Important to note: Once you start treatment, never feed your discus with live or frozen freshwater Aquatic animal like tubiflex or Bloodworm. If you still believe that it is a must to feed all these and to pamper your discus, forget about the treatment...the problem will come back as these are the carriers of oodinium and many other pathogens.

    We don't need to pamper discus with live or frozen aquatic animals just because discus live in water. We can change their diet to beefheart, porkheart, turkey heart, or proceesed dry food.....just like humans have unawarely change their own diet to include rice and pasta....I don't remember in history class....early man(cave man) running around in their birthday-suit already know how to make bread....do you know??? Are all the early man born with a genetic disposition to eat and to catch crabs and prawns in the river. If we just eat fish, prawns and crab with pasta.....we may live a long life........interestingly, this is more than what my mum is doing for the past 25 years and she is now 86. She eats only rice and fish.....these are all very alien to the very early man.

    If some feel that we deprive them of their natural diet....put them back in the Amazon river.....better this way.

    Warmest regards,
    Andrew
    Thirty-five years keeping and breeding discus, and I'm still learning :P

    Merrilyn has passed, but will not be forgotten - Goodbye dear friend

  2. #2
    Medium Discus
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    Re: Andrew Soh on treating Velvet disease (oodinium) in dis

    Quote Originally Posted by ladyred
    The safest and the best method is to use long bath with salt. The dose is 2 ppt(200gm per 100liter of water) for one month and by the next month, every one of the oodinium will be gone forever....believe me.
    Whenever you change water, add back the same dose or concentration.

    ***Important to note: Once you start treatment, never feed your discus with live or frozen freshwater Aquatic animal like tubiflex or Bloodworm. If you still believe that it is a must to feed all these and to pamper your discus, forget about the treatment...the problem will come back as these are the carriers of oodinium and many other pathogens.

    Andrew
    Ladyred....is Andrew suggesting here that frozen bloodworms are a no..no..during treatment????? where does this place the proof that all bacteria and other nasties are culled in the processing of frozen bloodworms?????If so this is totally contradictory to the manufactureres claim.....and needs clarification.....Jim
    .....Keep fit guys....get the bicycle out.....Jim

    have fun and be nice to each other

  3. #3
    Wrigglers
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    Hello Jim,

    Live feed like bloodworms are basically growing in the substrate of streams or cultured tanks and co-exiting together with parasites is unavoidable.

    In my years of ornamental fish farming (2 hetres land), we are constantly searching for better quality feed for our ornamental fish production and we have noticed the effect of different live and frozen feed in term of growth rate, health, parasite count and the possibility of infection under different condition. All the experiments were done with different feed under well controlled condition. My present opinion was a conclusion from my experiment.

    I do agree with you, Jim, that certain manufacturers claim that their product are 100% sterile. I don't deny their claims...maybe it is unfortunate that I have not come across the products of such manufacturers.....my apology.

    Jim, maybe my knowledge is still very shallow.....and cannot find an answer to how a special chemical or treatment or a UV used by manufacturers can destroy even the eggs or cyst of certain parasites like the gill fluke without disintegrating the bloodworms. How about those parasites just ingested by the worms before treatment. Is there such treatment that can eliminate ot destroy such parasites in the gut while leaving the worms whole and beautiful? Don't you think such cysts and ingested parasites may be in a state of hibernation? I truely need to learn and know. Please enlighten.

    And for those who are dealing with such products or are manufacturers of such......and you feel offended......my apology..for I am just talking straight. It is written in my book too...but in my book..I said that 'unless the manufacturer can ensure 100% disinfection'........

    Once again, my apology those who feel offended.

    Warmest regards,
    Andrew

  4. #4
    Eternal Moderator Merrilyn's Avatar
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    No need for an apology Andrew. Everyone is encouraged to express an opinion here.

    Experiences differ from one fishkeeper to another. What may be successful for one, is not successful for another, but all opinions are welcomed.

    Jim, I think the thing here is to read as much information as you can, and then form your own opinion.

    Just to give you an idea, when I went into Discus many years ago, it was recommended that you feed tubifex worms as the main diet. At that time, we all fed them worms and wondered why some of our fish sickened and went black, and eventually died. There seemed to be no cure, and no reason for some of them falling ill. Now we know that feeding tubifex is about the worst thing you can do, but for a long time, it was a very acceptable practice.

    Andrew has obviously found problems with feeding frozen bloodworm. Personally I have not. But I will certainly be thinking long and hard before I buy another batch of bloodworms. :P
    Thirty-five years keeping and breeding discus, and I'm still learning :P

    Merrilyn has passed, but will not be forgotten - Goodbye dear friend

  5. #5
    Wrigglers
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    Well said Ladyred.

    Warmest regards,
    Andrew

  6. #6
    Hi, I'm New Here!
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    Jim ,
    If so this is totally contradictory to the manufactureres claim.....and needs clarification.....Jim
    I disagree with Andrew Soh

    I have fed Frozen blood worm for years on many American / Asian /
    African /Madagascian/Tropical/ Australian/ Catfishes / loaches etc etc !and so on and so on ! ... I have personally never incurred any problems at all due to this feeding process :P ... as far as i am concerned Bloodworm is sterile ( 'cause it's frozen ) and also it is not too nourishing at all either, fish just like the taste 'simple' ... Try this !!! Thaw a packet of bloodworm out , spin it up in a blender and drain all the fluid out !
    You'll soon see what is left as far as product goes .... ...



    Ladyred....is Andrew suggesting here that frozen bloodworms are a no..no..during treatment?????
    Yes it seems so ....

    I have fed FROZEN BLOODWORM to all of the above during the process of
    treatment (provided they want food ) and have had many successful recoveries due to this ...

    where does this place the proof that all bacteria and other nasties are culled in the processing of frozen bloodworms?????
    Anything frozen is killed , it's not like eggs or cysts are going to re-generate 'NATURALLY' after a frozen period , after the destruction or disintigration of the host in the process, it is not going to happen. Therefore the fishes intake is off a mass substance that has nutritional deteriation only Still consumable and tastes full and harmless , Unless introduced in an over thawed state where bacteria can form ie: beyond 20 min thaw time puts your food at risk ! ...
    Lets not forget that fish have an immune system as we do , and they know whats "OFF" and whats not . JMO .

    Andy...

  7. #7
    Wrigglers
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    Hello Andy,

    Opinion defers. In my experience, there is no such a thing as an immediate reaction after consuming frozen bloodworms but certain will surface later. It all depends on the kind of pathogens.....for some protozoans, they may surface ealier while others proliferate later when the condition favours them.

    As ladyred said, her discus have been taking bloodworms and seems to do no harm. I just wonder where those velvet disease comes from...so I suggested to her the possibility as velvet, Piscinoodinium, does not airborne .

    I need to agree with you since you said that you have kept so many wonderful fishes from all over the world and you have been feeding them with frozen bloodworms and have never incurred any problem at all.

    You also mentioned that you have fed them with frozen bloodworms during treatment and the worms did not affect the fishes recovery rate.
    YOU MEAN THE ABOVE FISHES DID FALL SICK ONCE IN AWHILE??? Because of what???

    I also agree that after squeezing out the blood, what is left is nothing but calcium(shell) and whatever stuck with it. But you have just thrown away the proteins in the blood and whatever is in it.

    You mean freezing at minus 3 to 4 degree can kill even the cyst of micro-organism? Whe the product is frozen up to that level, what do you think, with all the packaging, plastic and etc..., the temperature in the center of the cube and how long it takes to freeze all the way into the center???

    Forgive me...just my opinion,
    Andrew [/b]

  8. #8
    Founder Proteus's Avatar
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    I just noticed something a little left of centre

    (sorry Andy)

    I have fed FROZEN BLOODWORM to all of the above during the process of treatment (provided they want food ) and have had many successful recoveries due to this ...
    Forgive me if I am wrong, but whilst medicating fish, isnt it best not to feed them at all??

  9. #9
    Eternal Moderator Merrilyn's Avatar
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    Most of the major breeders who have published information on discus diseases (Wattley, Degen, Au, Reeves etc.) seem to recommend feeding food soaked in medication, so the drug goes straight into the stomach where it does the most good.

    I've always fed fish who were undergoing treatment, but I'd be pleased to hear the opinions of others.
    Thirty-five years keeping and breeding discus, and I'm still learning :P

    Merrilyn has passed, but will not be forgotten - Goodbye dear friend

  10. #10
    Free Swimmer
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    I stopped feeding FBW a couple years ago when one of the manufacturers issued an actual statement regaurding certain pathogens that could "possibly" survive through the "freezing" process.

    On top of that..........

    Working in the industry, I noticed that sometimes the foods would arrive in a semi frozen state from the distributors.

    I have gotten to the point that I ONLY feed ONE brand of FBS to my fish and that is bc it is a trusted brand to breeders and culturists that I KNOW PERSONALLY.

    Since I stopped feeding BW and other frozen foods.........

    I have not lost a fish, except to NTD.

    As for the medicating and feeding goes.......

    It depends what you are treating.

    Some meds deliver the best when taken with food.

    Something that I adopted from my SW days is foods that include garlic.
    Nothing like a food that the fish seem to just LOVE and boost thier immune sys at the same time

    JM2C
    "I am not the chicken plucker. I am the chicken pluckers son, and I'll be plucking chickens till the chicken plucker comes!"

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