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  1. #1
    Wrigglers
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    Rapid respiration - again!

    ...or am I making more out of this than I should?
    I recently completed a second course of Sterazin to treat what looked like gill flukes. Fish looked great for about three days, then respiration started to increase again, with occasional scratching (but not much). Yesterday one of the smaller discus was hovering at the water surface, so I treated the whole tank with Aquamaster Gill & Fluke (which is basically Prazi.) A little improvement by today. Also other fish like cardinal tetras breathing fast.

    Ammonium & Nitrite = 0. Nitrate </= 5ppm. kH=4dkh, gH=9dh.
    Respiration rate for medium discus = 80 beats per minute. Smaller ones are faster.

    Q: How long should it take for the fish to settle down?
    Q: Is 80 beats per second too fast?
    Q: I crushed and dissolved the Prazi tablets in aquarium water. There was some white residue in the jug I used for dissolving. Should I have put all of this in the tank? If yes, I may have under dosed - should I redose?
    Q: Should I turn off the U.V. during Prazi treatment?
    Q: Have I missed something? Could there be another cause for these symptoms? Bacterial infection, for instance?
    Q: How important is it to clean the filters after Prazi? I run two Eheim external canisters (one each end).

    Ladyred, if you read this, did you get the e-mail I sent you - hope that was O.K. to send.

  2. #2
    Eternal Moderator Merrilyn's Avatar
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    Got your email Bill. That's fine. I don't mind at all.

    One thought comes to mind, do you have activated carbon in your filters. That will strip medication out of the water before it has time to work.

    Have you got an airstone in the tank as well as the eheims. I found that the spraybar on it's own didn't push enough oxygen into the water and had to add airstones in all of my tanks.

    When I dissolve the tablets, I put all the powder into the tank, but I don't think it would have made a big difference in this case. You need to do a follow up treatment with fluke tablets anyway, so make sure everything goes in next time.

    Eighty beats per minute isn't really too bad, and it's normal for smaller fish to have a faster breathing rate. Everything else looks fine to me.
    Thirty-five years keeping and breeding discus, and I'm still learning :P

    Merrilyn has passed, but will not be forgotten - Goodbye dear friend

  3. #3
    San Merah Discus
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    I turn my UV's off whilst medicating with anything but with Waterlife products it's a must do.
    MAC

  4. #4
    Wrigglers
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    Thanks ladyred.
    I have taken the carbon mats out of my filters, for that very reason.

    I'm looking into an airstone - next pay period.

    Q: Will discus fish scratch now and then without flukes, etc? (I know I do....)

    Mistakes R.
    Thanks for your feedback. As a matter of interest, which Waterlife products have you used, and to what effect? Do you think Sterazine works? Would you be interested in some Octozin? I'm getting some sent to me direct from Waterlife as it is not available at lfs.

  5. #5
    San Merah Discus
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    Hi Bill,

    I have a large tub of Octazin and fortunately don't have to use it often but thanks for the offer. It has worked very well for me but I've only had to use it a couple of times so nothing conclusive on offer here.

    I have also used Myxazin with good results but again, have only had to use it a couple of times on some Gold Rams that had a fungal problem that wouldn't go away. The Myxazin moved it in a week.

    As far as Sterazin is concerned the jury's still out, I'm not totally convinced as yet. It seems to have worked to an extent but I am still fighting flukes and have been for the last 6 weeks. I've treated with both Sterazin and Prazi so this morning I rang Karin Mogg (excellent fish vet with Phd on fish) and I'm taking two affected fish down to her later today for a biopsy, not an autopsy as one of my mates thought when I told him lol!

    I think Waterlife have changed Sterazin since the old days, some of the bottles my mates have are totally different in dosage rates etc. They also say repeatedly that it is so gentle on any fish, I wonder if it may be a little too gentle these days. I'm going to try some alternatives on the advice of Karin Mogg and will let you know how I go. There are lots of them but some seem to me to be an absolute last resort ie Potassium Permanganate, Dylox etc. Very harsh and dangerous from what I've read.
    MAC

  6. #6
    Eternal Moderator Merrilyn's Avatar
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    MAC do keep us posted on what you learn about your fish. We'd all love to hear what Karin has to say.
    Thirty-five years keeping and breeding discus, and I'm still learning :P

    Merrilyn has passed, but will not be forgotten - Goodbye dear friend

  7. #7
    San Merah Discus
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    Well guys, that was a rather morbid trip to the vets, not with my fish so much but in general when dealing with imported Discus at the moment.

    She obviously deals with a few importers and lately there have been many fish coming across with Capillaria. She has also had to deal with a whole Discus shipment recently that had TB, scary stuff.

    As far as mine were concerned she said that she could do the biopsy but because I wanted them alive she would have to sedate and then recover them which very often stressed the fish so much they died anyway. As I am convinced they only have flukes, are still eating, looking healthy and worth a couple of hundred bucks each I declined the offer. However, she did say if the situation worsens and one of the fish looks like it won't recover take it down to her and she will perform the biopsy. The report they offer is very thorough, it would give us just about every bacteria that is in the fish and the tanks/system. All this for about $30, I was impressed.

    We went through alternatives to Prazi but I didn't learn anything new, permanganate, Dylox were mentioned, both dangerous and not for me right now. Dylox will/can permanently damage the nervous system of fish and according to Karin you have to be very sure of what you are doing and why you are using it.

    Her advice for now, keep up the good husbandry practises, good diet, stick with Prazi and if that doesn't work I will have to sacrifice a fish for the benefit of the rest. Let's hope it's a runt but the two I have eat like pigs, show no signs of flukes and chase fish 3 times their size! We'll see what happens.
    MAC

  8. #8
    Wrigglers
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    MRC:
    Thanks for your info. I spoke to Waterlife direct. They advised you can dose with Sterazine at the prescribed rate, twice a day for 12 days straight with no harm to the fish - they are confident this approach would get rid of all gill flukes - so I think you might be right. Sterazine may be gentle, on fish and flukes alike.

    My fish all look prety comfortable right now at 60 hours post Prazi.

    After hearing what you said about the state of imported fish, I'm setting up a quaratine tank pronto as I do want to increase my stock over the next month or so.

  9. #9
    San Merah Discus
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    At 65 bucks a bottle treating 3000 litres Im sure they are very happy for us all to treat 12 days straight! Off the top of my head I think that would cost me $260 for the treatment. Mmmmmm.
    MAC

  10. #10
    Eternal Moderator Merrilyn's Avatar
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    Thanks guys. I'm going to make this a sticky, so the information is available to everyone.
    Thirty-five years keeping and breeding discus, and I'm still learning :P

    Merrilyn has passed, but will not be forgotten - Goodbye dear friend

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