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  1. #21
    Medium Discus
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    East of Melbourne
    Posts
    515

    My Understanding Re: F1

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollowman
    If they are advertised as wild discus, then they should have been caught in the Amazon.
    F1's are the direct offspring of a pair of fish, be they wild caught or domestic fish.
    If they are wild F1's then you can say that they are domestically bred direct offspring of wild caught fish. Not too confusing I hope.

    hth

    H
    Wild caught fish are regarded as F0 - the off-spring of those wild caught fish would be rated as F1. IF you or I acquired a pair of those wonderful F1's and bred them, we would offer the fry for sale and these would be F2 eg: 2nd generation from Wild caught parents. Those who purchased our fry and bred them would offer their fry and these would be F3 - 3rd generation from wild caught parents etc etc. This is my understanding of the system.

    Hey but don't take my word for it - perhaps Heiko can offer us an elaboration upon the meaning of F1 ?

    Many here would know me as an Apistophile and the Apistogramma poster published and available on Heiko's web site is just great.

  2. #22
    Just an Egg
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    34
    Hi,

    this is Heiko. I just wanted to thank you for the nice comment on my posters.

    In regards to F1, I guess (or thought) you might know, that it is a standard expression for when two fishes of the same population have young, an offspring, and those young become the called F1.
    It can also be from a very close populations, but always of one and the same species. And it is applied only (normally) to wild fishes, which have never been breed in captivity before.
    Naturally there are exceptions of the use of F1 - and specially by many who do not know the exact meaning of it. And than it is applied to any offspring, also of different species - or to fishes which are already tank breeds, but all these latter ones are not correct .

    All the very best, and hope to see you all June 2nd in perth for my lectures.

    Best regards

    always

    Heiko Bleher
    www.aquapress-bleher.com

    PS: have a look at:
    http://www.aquapress-bleher.com/inde...=367&Itemid=42
    Heiko Bleher

  3. #23
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    China
    Posts
    2,283
    Quote Originally Posted by Heiko Bleher
    Naturally there are exceptions of the use of F1 - and specially by many who do not know the exact meaning of it. And than it is applied to any offspring, also of different species - or to fishes which are already tank breeds, but all these latter ones are not correct .

    Heiko Bleher
    I think for anyone who is starting a breeding programme, they are quite within their rights to call the first generation from their fish as F1's. It seems to be a bit of an elitist attitude to say that they do not know the correct meaning of these two digits. I would hate for you to tell me that the only people who can use this expression are the fortunate few who can select fish from the original source.
    If we who buy domestic strains cannot us the 'F1' description what would you suggest we use? How are we to describe our first batch and so on?
    I think you will find that all the major breeders and pioneers developing newer strains will be using these digits to describe their offspring. Are they all wrong?

    Steve
    Why me ?

  4. #24
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Penrith NSW
    Posts
    5,873
    just to confuse everyone, strickly speeking F1 is a genetic term used to describe a liniage.

    If one was to start a breeding experiment with ANY fish the original pair would be the P1, any offspring would be F1.

    generally the term is only used in breeding, F2 would be derived by inbreeding (crossing siblings) of your F1, say you want to backcross the F1 to the P1 to lock in a trait (line breeding) these offspring would NOT be F1's in the strict sense they are also F2's

    of corse without pure strains to start with the process is completly meaningless, unless your writing a scientific artical, or are an analy retentive fish keeper like myself.

  5. #25
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    China
    Posts
    2,283
    Quote Originally Posted by ILLUSN
    or are an analy retentive fish keeper like myself.
    and me
    Why me ?

  6. #26
    Just an Egg
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    34
    Hi,

    just back from lectures in Turkey and Greece, and some collecting in both countries as well (no discus naturally), I wanted to say only this:

    1. Naturally anyone can do it pleases him, I was only trying to give here the correct explanation of the meaning F1.
    2. Normally an first batch/breeding from a new bought discus (strain/variant/race) is called : first offspring, or first young, or first babies, etc. but normally not F1.

    That is all I can add.

    All the best and hope to see you all on June 2nd in Perth,

    always

    Heiko Bleher
    www.aquapress-bleher.com
    Heiko Bleher

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