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Proteus
Thu Aug 12, 2004, 10:02 PM
courtesy of Allan Clarke and the Australian Discus Association & Robin and Ron Futtrell
(as seen in the DISCUSsions June/July Newsletter)



You will be using a total of 1/8 tsp. of Panacur (Fenbendazole) per 3oz
(84g) total food (beefheart works best) in a 4-dose treatment. Mixing it
with food is the most effective way to use this drug, as it does not dissolve
well in water.

• Begin by starving fish for 12 hours before feeding so they’ll be good
and hungry and won’t turn their noses up at the treated food.

• Take 1/8 tsp. Panacur granules and grind into a fine powder – we
use a pharmacist’s mortar.

• Divide the ground powder into four doses and put ½ (two doses)
back for later use.

• Take ¼ of the 3oz beefheart (21g), flatten out and sprinkle one dose
of Panacur over the top (imagine you’re heavily salting food), fold
the beefheart over, then soak the mixture in the fridge for about an
hour before feeding it to the fish.

• Do this again 8-12hrs later. Wait 6-8 days (depending on the life cycle
of the worm you are treating for) and repeat this procedure. Feed
your fish normally during this “wait period” and do not pre-mix
the treated food, as the drug will lose its potency (as most all
drugs do).

We find it best to not feed the fish their night-time meal, mix one dose
early in the morning, feed it to them, then don’t feed them again until
their second dose is due (8-12hrs later). We usually wait until the 8th
day to give them their third and fourth doses.

Bloodworms can be used instead of beefheart by soaking frozen worms
inside a small bowl of tank water for approximately 1hr. Soak in same
dosage as with beefheart. Live worms are only recommended for use if
your fish will not eat anything else. At same dosage, soak worms until
first few begin to slow down and die. Feed immediately. If your fish
aren’t eating, please request specific instructions for use in water.

If the fish have any kind of lump in the stomach, they’ve not been passing
their feces at a normal rate. If they’ve had worms in excess of 3
months or if you suspect the fish are infested with worms, we suggest
you clean them out before treatment, 24-48hrs after the second treatment,
then again 48hrs after the fourth treatment. Be sure to keep a
check on how well they pass the worms, dead or otherwise. They may
require a fourth cleaning out if they’re having a hard time passing their
feces or if they’re passing it at a rate YOU don’t fell like is normal for
them. You’re the only one who can make that decision since you’re the
only one who sees them on a daily basis. Clean them out using Epsom
salt inside their food as we’ve found it’s most effective when put directly
inside their gut (remember, that’s where the worms are so it only makes
sense that it would be most effective when used this way). Normal dosage
for cleaning out a fish is 1/8 tsp. Epsom salt per 4oz (112g) of
beefheart. This dosage changes if you have to clean them out throughout
the de-worming process so if this applies to you, we ask that you
contact us for proper dosage, as it will be based on your individual case.
Any of the special circumstances mentioned above, or if the fish aren’t
passing their feces normally the morning after the second dose was
administered, you will need a change in the Epsom salt dosage.

May I suggest the above directions be read carefully and understood
before beginning treatment. It’s almost impossible to overdose with the
Panacur (and Epsom salt for that matter), however, getting too much in
their stomachs at once could cause the fish to get a bellyache for a few
days. When used as directed here it will only make them feel great
again (provided you’re treating for the right kind of worm). Also please
remember – a discus fish has an incredible immune system. It’s only
when they are under some kind of stress that the immune system
breaks down and allows worms to take over. So if your fish have worms
and you can’t think of any logical reason why they would have them
(shipping stress, getting bullied all the time, malnutrition, etc.), look to
your water conditions for the cause. Pinpointing the actual cause is the
only way to make sure your discus fish stays healthy after treating for
the result of the immune system breakdown.



(many thanks to Allan Clarke for allowing DiscusForums.com to reproduce this article and share it amongst fellow hobbyists)
(used with permission, original article provided by Robin and Ron Futtrell)

Merrilyn
Fri Aug 13, 2004, 10:28 AM
Another terrific article with easy to follow instructions. Thanks Proteus and Allan Clarke.

Dougall Stewart
Sat Nov 26, 2005, 05:56 PM
Shouldnt this article be attributed to Robin and Ron Futtrell?

Looks very familiar http://article.discusnews.com/cat-02/panacur-1.shtml

clothahump
Sat Nov 26, 2005, 06:19 PM
:roll:

Proteus
Sun Nov 27, 2005, 03:07 AM
Given that this was originally quoted some years ago by the person mentioned in the original post, the authenticity of both has to be questioned.

This was published again last year, and permission was sought from the author attached to the original article in print.

Either way it is a good article, and if both parties should recieve credit for it, so be it.

cichlidfan
Sun Nov 27, 2005, 04:22 AM
Dougall,
The article did originally come from Robin Futrell, I sought permission from Robin to use the article and all i have done is break it down so that the hobbyist in Australia can understand it better.
HTH
Regards
Allan

Proteus
Sun Nov 27, 2005, 04:41 AM
I will update the credits in the original post

marg
Sun Nov 27, 2005, 06:28 AM
Where do you purchase Panacur from? Vets or Pet Shops?

Also, does Panacur harm Bristlenoses, Clown Loaches and Knife Fish?

Very interesting article.


Marg.

Dougall Stewart
Sun Nov 27, 2005, 08:52 AM
Hi allan

I always knew you were one of the good guys and this proves it. Much appreciated.

It also goes to show why I like this forum too, anyone can make an error (I make millions lol) but the good people- take the time and effort to correct them.

BTW we will be in OZ for August next year. Brenda will kill me and say I planned it but if I accidentally end up in a discus shop. Is there a list anywhere of good shops on the NE, E, SE Coast?

cheers.

clothahump
Sun Nov 27, 2005, 08:57 AM
BTW we will be in OZ for August next year.
You sure they will let you in D? Australia is quite fussy unlike the UK. :lol:

cichlidfan
Sun Nov 27, 2005, 01:27 PM
courtesy of Allan Clarke and the Australian Discus Association & Robin and Ron Futtrell
(as seen in the DISCUSsions June/July Newsletter)

This article is an extract from the original article by Robin and Ron Futtrell written for DPH



You will be using a total of 1/8 tsp. of Panacur (Fenbendazole) per 3oz
(84g) total food (beefheart works best) in a 4-dose treatment. Mixing it
with food is the most effective way to use this drug, as it does not dissolve
well in water.

• Begin by starving fish for 12 hours before feeding so they’ll be good
and hungry and won’t turn their noses up at the treated food.

• Take 1/8 tsp. Panacur granules and grind into a fine powder – we
use a pharmacist’s mortar.

• Divide the ground powder into four doses and put ½ (two doses)
back for later use.

• Take ¼ of the 3oz beefheart (21g), flatten out and sprinkle one dose
of Panacur over the top (imagine you’re heavily salting food), fold
the beefheart over, then soak the mixture in the fridge for about an
hour before feeding it to the fish.

• Do this again 8-12hrs later. Wait 6-8 days (depending on the life cycle
of the worm you are treating for) and repeat this procedure. Feed
your fish normally during this “wait period” and do not pre-mix
the treated food, as the drug will lose its potency (as most all
drugs do).

We find it best to not feed the fish their night-time meal, mix one dose
early in the morning, feed it to them, then don’t feed them again until
their second dose is due (8-12hrs later). We usually wait until the 8th
day to give them their third and fourth doses.

Bloodworms can be used instead of beefheart by soaking frozen worms
inside a small bowl of tank water for approximately 1hr. Soak in same
dosage as with beefheart. Live worms are only recommended for use if
your fish will not eat anything else. At same dosage, soak worms until
first few begin to slow down and die. Feed immediately. If your fish
aren’t eating, please request specific instructions for use in water.

If the fish have any kind of lump in the stomach, they’ve not been passing
their feces at a normal rate. If they’ve had worms in excess of 3
months or if you suspect the fish are infested with worms, we suggest
you clean them out before treatment, 24-48hrs after the second treatment,
then again 48hrs after the fourth treatment. Be sure to keep a
check on how well they pass the worms, dead or otherwise. They may
require a fourth cleaning out if they’re having a hard time passing their
feces or if they’re passing it at a rate YOU don’t fell like is normal for
them. You’re the only one who can make that decision since you’re the
only one who sees them on a daily basis. Clean them out using Epsom
salt inside their food as we’ve found it’s most effective when put directly
inside their gut (remember, that’s where the worms are so it only makes
sense that it would be most effective when used this way). Normal dosage
for cleaning out a fish is 1/8 tsp. Epsom salt per 4oz (112g) of
beefheart. This dosage changes if you have to clean them out throughout
the de-worming process so if this applies to you, we ask that you
contact us for proper dosage, as it will be based on your individual case.
Any of the special circumstances mentioned above, or if the fish aren’t
passing their feces normally the morning after the second dose was
administered, you will need a change in the Epsom salt dosage.

May I suggest the above directions be read carefully and understood
before beginning treatment. It’s almost impossible to overdose with the
Panacur (and Epsom salt for that matter), however, getting too much in
their stomachs at once could cause the fish to get a bellyache for a few
days. When used as directed here it will only make them feel great
again (provided you’re treating for the right kind of worm). Also please
remember – a discus fish has an incredible immune system. It’s only
when they are under some kind of stress that the immune system
breaks down and allows worms to take over. So if your fish have worms
and you can’t think of any logical reason why they would have them
(shipping stress, getting bullied all the time, malnutrition, etc.), look to
your water conditions for the cause. Pinpointing the actual cause is the
only way to make sure your discus fish stays healthy after treating for
the result of the immune system breakdown.



(many thanks to Allan Clarke for allowing DiscusForums.com to reproduce this article and share it amongst fellow hobbyists)
(used with permission, original article provided by Robin and Ron Futtrell)

Ben
Mon Nov 28, 2005, 05:07 AM
Great article Alan.

For those that would like to know is it possible to use liquid panacur such as "Panacur 25"?

Cheers
Ben

marg
Mon Nov 28, 2005, 09:38 AM
Hi Ben,

I rang around Vets and Stock & Station Suppliers here in Wagga - none seemed to have any knowledge of Panacur Granules - however they could supply Panacur 25 in Litre Bottles ($31.95), so I am wondering the same as you.

I am also wondering if Panacur would harm Loaches, Knife Fish and Bristlenoses.

Hope someone can shed some light on this for us.

Regards,

Marg.

clothahump
Mon Nov 28, 2005, 09:47 AM
I would imagine that Panacur Liquid would be safe to use if you mix it with the food, what little would get into suspension should not cause that much trouble.
I have sent a message to one of the guys on my forums, he is a fully trained Australian Vet living in London. UK. ;)

marg
Mon Nov 28, 2005, 10:59 AM
Thanks heaps clothahump.

Could you also ask him about the effects on the other tank inhabitants?

clothahump
Mon Nov 28, 2005, 11:31 AM
He will probably write a short article knowing him.
Just had a quick chat with my m8 at Dorset Discus and he reckons the hardest bit will be working out the dosace.

fishgeek
Mon Nov 28, 2005, 03:11 PM
emm taking the mickey whilst i'm not here to defend myself hey tim!
:wink:

dose rate for panacur (= fenbendazol)
2mg/l permanet bath repeat 3 times every 7 days
alternatively
50mg/kg orally in feed, dose 2 consecutive days and then repeat 2 dose's again in 14 days (ref w. wildgoose~BSAVA manual of ornamental fish)


250ppm in feed (this i dont like so much as to convert to mgs we need to know the molecular density of panacur- my math's isnt that good- or maybe i'm just confusing myself) if density is 1 then i think it is 25mgs/kg
or panacur equine formulation containing 100mgs/ml can be used at 2 ppm in water(again vague is this ppm based just on volume ie 2 ml in 1 million mls = 2mg/l ) again repeat weekly for 3 treatments , change water and 2/3 days after treatment and and avoid passing medication through undergravel beds- ?why? i dont know (ref stoskopf fish medicine)

a couple of small points pertaining to the orginal article, i apologise for knit picking , especially when you dont know me , it's just that incorrect dosing may lead to problems

oral dosing is in my mind(i have NO personal experience with this medication in fish , also i have NO personal experience in keeping discus - i hope some of you are still reading)
is the best way to treat fish for nematodes with this type of product

when calculating dose's for oral medication a dose per kg of fish is the accepted medical standard
units should be all metric , or whichever is your thing, ie not tspn/ounces/grams especially when not all imperial weights and measures mean the same thing(again apologies for being picky)

oral dose's mixed with food obviously only work when feeding and intestinal nematodes do lead to inappetance
if the fish's body weight is not known( weigh a bag of water, then weigh the same bag water and fish) then the calculated dose should be mixed with a days worth of food - most of us know what we feed

calculations for what a fish eat are usually based on approx 1% of it's body weight daily

and finally an ancedotal warning (again based on no experience at all) just what i have come accross reading on the internet

it has been written , on a few occasions that head standing can develop after dosing with fenbedazol
this i think maybe due to in water medication being absorbed accross the gills and leading to higher tissue levels in the fish

other possibilties for worming
levamisol
flubendaol
a mesh at the bottom of the tank so egg's fall through and do not reinfest other worms

andrew
hopefully i havent upset anyone
ps is this an australian forum or just afew australian keeers posting in this thread?

fishgeek
Mon Nov 28, 2005, 03:13 PM
oops
panacur is recorded as being safe in veterinary literature , on all fish

did i say i have never used it though :wink:

clothahump
Mon Nov 28, 2005, 03:17 PM
He will probably write a short article knowing him.

Told you this would happen. ;)
Good information as per usual Andrew, many thanks.

Proteus
Mon Nov 28, 2005, 04:58 PM
hopefully i havent upset anyone
ps is this an australian forum or just afew australian keeers posting in this thread?

Andrew, thanks for the information re dosage etc.

This forum is for anyone in any country, just there are a lot of Aussies around, hope that doesnt scare anyone off... so... G'Day