Wild Discus and Wild caught Discus

[Griffin]

Hello guys.


Recently, I bought bunch of Wild Discus from LFS
I just little confused about this.
What my understanding is Wild Discus is kind of F1
and wild caught is literally caught in Amazon.

is it right??

if so then wild Discus that is available in LFS
, Are those one that are bred in by someone somewhere??

I'd like to clear on that.
Cheers

[Hollowman]

If they are advertised as wild discus, then they should have been caught in the Amazon.
F1's are the direct offspring of a pair of fish, be they wild caught or domestic fish.
If they are wild F1's then you can say that they are domestically bred direct offspring of wild caught fish. Not too confusing I hope.

hth

H :?

[Griffin]

As far as i know, No one has bred wild discus.
so appearently, there are some wild discus breeder out there by sounds of it.
Thanks for you info anyhow
cheers.

[Hollowman]

My friend has got a couple of pairs of wild caught canuma blues, he is breeding these very successfully. Here is a link to his youtube vidoes of them. They are absolutley stunning fish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhJukhHrUwU&feature=channel

Here is a link to the thread on bidka.org (my site :wink: ) where Dan documents his breeding of these fish. http://forum.bidka.org/showthread.php?t=8304

You may have to register to see the photos, but it is definately worth it.

I think you have probably heard that wild caught Heckles have never been bred in captivity, this, I beleive is true.

H :wink:

[lpiasente]

They really are beautiful fish, they look too perfect to be real.

[Hollowman]

That particular shipment of fish were hand picked by Heiko for Discus South in the Uk. These ones of Dan's were spectactular examples, but Dan is an exceptional keeper. I was helping Dan pick out some wild caught heckles just the other day, I know his goal is to try to breed them.

[m.ingram]

Hollowman your friend has a stunning pair there it makes me want to change to wilds.

[Hollowman]

Yes, me too...These are some more of his wilds. I think they speak for themselves.

[DiscusDave]

Wow, they are absoluteley stunning :)

[Matt15]

WoW... those pictures just blow me away. What a magnificent collection of Wild Discus. Truely stunning..!!!!!!

There's being F1 grade Wilds sold here in Brisbane many times before..... and they sell them for the same price as a Wild Caught if not more which is BS. But many of the people buying these fish are uneducated and haven't got a clue.

[Hollowman]

There's being F1 grade Wilds sold here in Brisbane many times before..... and they sell them for the same price as a Wild Caught if not more which is BS. But many of the people buying these fish are uneducated and haven't got a clue.

Aint that the truth :evil:

[Reillin]

G'day Griffin,

F0 are caught from their native locations, F1 are the offsprings from F0 (both parents).

I think in the trade, we have wild-strains and wild caught and some traders might embellish slightly, "inadvertently" calling wild-strains as wild discus. Wild strains are basically bred and kept to their specific locality and patterns from wildcaught parents. The present modern discus have been line bred, crossed between the different strains or even hybrids of discus which can very well be different species (something debatable).

Cheers,
Vien.

[Pheonix]

Just a question from a noob,

Is there a fish that is out of place in the group shop, third from left?

[Griffin]

Wow those picture are absolutly beatiful.
thanks for the sharing.

I bought mine in different LFS but know that most of them are from Bayfish and some may be from AI.

So anyone knows where Bayfish 's wild discus from.
I'm not sure that is it allow to ask this on the forum.
P.S: At least i know now that someone 's bred wild caught discus.

[Pheonix]

I mean 3rd from right... why is the only one with lines?

[ILLUSN]

3rd from the right looks to me to be aroyal blue and a damn high grade one at that, thats the parent strin that jack used to develop his turquoise back in the 70's.

notice the brown base color on the belly and moving though the middle of the fish.

the blue starts on the fins and move into the body, unlike the modern day turks who have a solid blue base through out the fish

[Pheonix]

Thanks for that info, They are truly stunning fish. I think they are much better than any of the man made strains. Not sure i'll see too many of them here in Darwin but... we don't even have a Aquarium store.

[Hollowman]

I must admit, they are stunning fish.

[TW]

I've seen those pics before, but will never tire of seeing them. Your friend has the most beautiful wilds. Wish I live on your side of the ocean, so I could buy some of his fry.

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi all you guys on this thread,

I saw my name and also these pictures. Anyone of you can have such beauties, as one has to make the correct biotope (and he did, also need some more floating plants, if possible). He keeps only one species (S. haraldi), that is browns/blues (and yeas there is one nice Royal Blue in the group, which is also a S. haraldi), and that helps also. And than he takes well care of these beauties. That is the only secret (as wilds are very tough).
This can be done anywhere and by anyone. And do not have to be be only of my own collectings (ie like the Canuma variants).

You can have a look at some recent collected ones, they are starting to colour up and become fatter also by now. Just go to my website www.aquapree-bleher.com under LATEST NEWS and go to "Beautiful Discus".

And b.t.w. wild discus are been breed around the world, and if not where should all the tank breeds come from? From heaven?

Best rgerads

Heiko Bleher
www.aquapress-bleher.com
ù

[Hassles]

If they are advertised as wild discus, then they should have been caught in the Amazon.
F1's are the direct offspring of a pair of fish, be they wild caught or domestic fish.
If they are wild F1's then you can say that they are domestically bred direct offspring of wild caught fish. Not too confusing I hope.

hth

H :?

Wild caught fish are regarded as F0 - the off-spring of those wild caught fish would be rated as F1. IF you or I acquired a pair of those wonderful F1's and bred them, we would offer the fry for sale and these would be F2 eg: 2nd generation from Wild caught parents. Those who purchased our fry and bred them would offer their fry and these would be F3 - 3rd generation from wild caught parents etc etc. This is my understanding of the system.

Hey but don't take my word for it - perhaps Heiko can offer us an elaboration upon the meaning of F1 ?

Many here would know me as an Apistophile and the Apistogramma poster published and available on Heiko's web site is just great.

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi,

this is Heiko. I just wanted to thank you for the nice comment on my posters.

In regards to F1, I guess (or thought) you might know, that it is a standard expression for when two fishes of the same population have young, an offspring, and those young become the called F1.
It can also be from a very close populations, but always of one and the same species. And it is applied only (normally) to wild fishes, which have never been breed in captivity before.
Naturally there are exceptions of the use of F1 - and specially by many who do not know the exact meaning of it. And than it is applied to any offspring, also of different species - or to fishes which are already tank breeds, but all these latter ones are not correct .

All the very best, and hope to see you all June 2nd in perth for my lectures.

Best regards

always

Heiko Bleher
www.aquapress-bleher.com

PS: have a look at:
http://www.aquapress-bleher.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=367&Itemid=42

[Hollowman]

Naturally there are exceptions of the use of F1 - and specially by many who do not know the exact meaning of it. And than it is applied to any offspring, also of different species - or to fishes which are already tank breeds, but all these latter ones are not correct .

Heiko Bleher


I think for anyone who is starting a breeding programme, they are quite within their rights to call the first generation from their fish as F1's. It seems to be a bit of an elitist attitude to say that they do not know the correct meaning of these two digits. I would hate for you to tell me that the only people who can use this expression are the fortunate few who can select fish from the original source.
If we who buy domestic strains cannot us the 'F1' description what would you suggest we use? How are we to describe our first batch and so on?
I think you will find that all the major breeders and pioneers developing newer strains will be using these digits to describe their offspring. Are they all wrong?

Steve

[ILLUSN]

just to confuse everyone, strickly speeking F1 is a genetic term used to describe a liniage.

If one was to start a breeding experiment with ANY fish the original pair would be the P1, any offspring would be F1.

generally the term is only used in breeding, F2 would be derived by inbreeding (crossing siblings) of your F1, say you want to backcross the F1 to the P1 to lock in a trait (line breeding) these offspring would NOT be F1's in the strict sense they are also F2's

of corse without pure strains to start with the process is completly meaningless, unless your writing a scientific artical, or are an analy retentive fish keeper like myself.

[Hollowman]

or are an analy retentive fish keeper like myself.

:lol: :lol: and me :lol: :lol:

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi,

just back from lectures in Turkey and Greece, and some collecting in both countries as well (no discus naturally), I wanted to say only this:

1. Naturally anyone can do it pleases him, I was only trying to give here the correct explanation of the meaning F1.
2. Normally an first batch/breeding from a new bought discus (strain/variant/race) is called : first offspring, or first young, or first babies, etc. but normally not F1.

That is all I can add.

All the best and hope to see you all on June 2nd in Perth,

always

Heiko Bleher
www.aquapress-bleher.com