Not looking good!

[Escher]

One of my young mandarine has been withdrawn for the last few days and lost some of its colour. Tonight I noticed it has a swollen abdomen and gills open wider than usual.
Water parameters are ok (I think)
Ammonia Nil
Nitrite nil
Nitrite 5ppm
pH 6.60
temp 30deg

although I had a (gradual) pH drop to 6.0 last night. (before 25% water change)
The tank has received a course (3 doses) of metro and salt as problems with juvenile diamond were not resolved (& still isn't: 2 dead, 1 on its way, the other perfect! - but different symptoms alltogether).
I have attached two pics (not the best unfortunately as the fish would not pose :roll: ); the one with two fis shows a sibling behind it with normal colouring for comparison.
Any idea what could be and course of action.
Thanks to all.
Gianluca

[Escher]

Taken a turn for the worse! Thick white soft looking poo hanging out. Looks more like his guts are coming out.

[Merrilyn]

My thoughts on this are one of two things. Worst case scenario is some kind of tumour in which case you can do nothing, but I'm beginning to think you may have a resistant case of tape worm. Tape worms can grow to an incredible 12 inches even in a small fish, and can cause the gut to swell like in the photo, causing breathing dificulties. First thing to try is epsom salts to empty the gut and follow up with a good tapeworm remedy. This should only be added to clean water with no other meds in it, so do a big water change and filter over carbon for 24 hours before trying this. I'll do some research and get you the correct dosages and post it here shortly.

[Merrilyn]

Epsom salts can be obtained from any chemist. The dose rate is 2 tablespoons per 10 gallons of water. Treat for 24 hours. Do a water change then treat for tapeworm. BTW Metro will not affect tapeworm so you need a specific tapeworm treatment. HTH

[Proteus]

This is exactly the same thing that happenned to Red, my Female Marlboro Red who I lost 3 days ago.

She was fine one day, then the next I saw her resting on the substrate, still breathing but her gut was extremely swolen.

I removed her and placed her in a clean 2ft tank with a couple of mature sponge filters and heater. I added clean aged water (same temp and pH as the tank) as well as the required dosage of Praziquantel, as I thought it was Cestodes (Tapeworms).

Well, sadly she was gone within 12hrs, there was faeces in the tank, so bloat or constipation must not have been the problem. I did feel the affected area prior to placing her in the freezer, and it was very rigid and swolen...

I dont know if it was worms or a tumour, as I didnt have the heart to cut her open, maybe I should have, but my thoughts went straight to the other 20 Discus who are all totally fine.

As Ladyred advised, Metro wont really help with this, you need epsom salts or Praziquantel...

HTH

[Escher]

As I said metro was added in the main tank targeting other problems; ig anything else this should have eliminated some possibilities.
I must have read your mind about worms, so I did place the fish in a 2ft tank with praziq. (otherwise hard to treat 800L) and added a companion. But I did not think about the epsom salts. I'll do that when I get home, if still alive! :(

[Proteus]

My fingers are crossed for you, and your Discus

[parasite]

I agree with Ladyred and Proteus on the epsom salts and maybe also give the article posted by proteus on panacur a read as i have had more success with "deworming discus with panacur" than with prazi with similar symptoms that ur fish is showing. good luck hope all goes well

[flukes]

The article as actually written by Alan Clarke. Just thought id letyou know, too give him his credit. As it is great article.

[weird]

Do you have a link to the article ? Not having much luck googling it.

[Proteus]

it is here in the articles & product review section...

:wink:

[Escher]

they are still alive; I've added the epsom salt. They seem fractionally more relieved now! Still hoping at this stage.

[mtchye]

Hi,

Don't forget that praziquantel only treats very specifically for tapeworms and flukes (trematodes and cestodes), roundworms are also very commonly found in many imported fish and may cause the same symptoms. In addition I've found in larger fish like discus and angels the typical diagnostic characteristic of tiny pinpoint red worm heads sticking out of the anus may not be present all the time and may be hard to observe. The cammallanus worm is very infectious but relatively small compared to tapeworms so fish can show no clinical signs of infection for a VERY long time. I've even had angels spawn while showing signs of a few worms infection.

Luckily its easy to treat. Levamisole is sold as a pig and poultry wormer in a concentration of 14g/litre. The dose to use with this solution is 1ml / 7 litres. Like praziquantel there is some debate on whether a second dose is required. In my experience one dose is enough. Also like praziquantel, levamisole is very specific (treating nematodes) and has a high therapeutic range (meaning its hard to overdose with it). Its also relatively cheap. You should be able to find it in your local rural or farm supply store. Last time I bought it was in a brand named Sykes Big L, prior to this it was sold as Cooper's Nilverm.

On a side note, can someone PM me where you get your metronidazole from and how much it typically costs? Also do you guys know a cheap bulk place to get praziquantel?

[parasite]

The article as actually written by Alan Clarke. Just thought id letyou know, too give him his credit. As it is great article.

i know who wrote it I also thought its a great article thats why i mentioned it as it is good reading and very informative :lol: :lol: :lol: why dont u give him a recharge card if u wanna give him credit :lol: :lol: :lol:

[flukes]

ahh yeah....

Was just stating because your post before you edited it sounded like Ro wrote it, i was just letting other know who the writter was.

[Escher]

Almsot a week later the fish are still alive. I used the epsom salt and the fish with bloated stomach is still trying to pass all the with stuff. I managed to get hold of some Panacur (mind you I though it was a tablet or powder, but it turns out is a sussension: easier to administer).
The bad news :( is they have not been eating. so at the end I don't know whether all this is going to pay!

[flukes]

If your desperate you could catch the fish and syringe feed the meds too it.

[nicholas76]

HI,

That white poo is mucas and intestinol mucous membrane. The "bug" will continue to eat away untill it kills your fish basically. This white "stuff" will fall to the ground and nine out of ten times other fish will mouth it. its full of nasty bacteria.

metronidazole and get some quick. You need to catch on to this early.

you can obtain this from most vets in tablet form. its cheap under 20 dollars

what generally causes it in my opinion.

1. crappy diet
2. tank environment is a great place which harbours diseases.
3. stressed fish

soak your food into it or if worse comes to worse use a syringe , but if it gets to that stage good luck!!

Ive dealt with it before and its a nsaty thing to cure.

[Escher]

Inflamation of gills and mouth has increased. I have injected them with food & med once. They clearly don't like it much. One more injection of med mut one fish now dead! :cry: The other I have little hope at this stage, although it doesn't look that bad.