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View Full Version : New med, an alternative to Levamisole



mistakes r crucial
Sat Dec 30, 2006, 09:23 PM
Hi,

Our trusty fish vet has just introduced us to an alternative to Levamisole, a cattle and pig worming product called Ivomec. She said that trials have proved it to be more effective than Levamisole but at this stage there is little information on its use in fish.

A good mate of mine has agreed to trial it on his fish, well he was the one who went to the surgery :lol:! I hope it works as I for one would love to put the Levamisole back in the cupboard for ever. I'll post his results after the treatments.
MAC

mistakes r crucial
Sat Dec 30, 2006, 10:43 PM
Sorry, posted this in the wrong section. Can admin please move it. Thanks.
MAC

fishgeek
Sun Dec 31, 2006, 08:34 AM
ivermectin has been about for age's and isnt exactly a new drug
it is a pretty broad spectrum medication, having in mammals effects against both internal and external parasites of the nematode,cestode, trematode,arthropod and probably other groups i cant remember(noddy?)

i was always(an i dont know why) under the impression that it was not safe in fish
i have read many articles about it's use in salmon to delouse and have a veterinery text reference for it's use against lernea
has your vet seen some new information on further usage ?

single correct dosing can cause irreversible and permanent paralysis in chelonia
certain dog's have genetic susceptibility and will suffer from toxic signs whilst at seemingly the correct dosage - this gene has been marked and can be tested for in dogs now

with fish i would assume there will also be these variations between species(and prehaps even individuals within species) that will make it hard to evaluate without large numbers of test fish


andrew

mistakes r crucial
Sun Dec 31, 2006, 10:46 AM
Hi Fishgeek,

Maybe I should have said new to me as I have not come across it before. I have only read a bit about it today and I agree that there are some not so good reports on using it with Salmon. However, the vet we use up here I trust implicitly, she is very, very good and we will try this drug on a few fish and see what happens. Obviously we are not going to see long term affects but I'm sure it can't be any worse than the short term affects of Levamisole on young fish. That one I have seen first hand and it's not good.
MAC

fishgeek
Sun Jan 07, 2007, 03:14 PM
any more info on this mac?

andrew

mistakes r crucial
Sun Jan 07, 2007, 08:44 PM
Hi Andrew,

The mate I referred to used it and as far as I am aware all went well. However, he slightly over dosed a few runt peppermints to see what would happen and it killed the lot so at this stage it looks like you have to be spot on with the dosage. Not much of a bandwidth to play with there at all by the look of it.

Personally I think I'll be sticking with Levamisole for my Discus until there is far more information out there.
MAC

fishgeek
Mon Jan 08, 2007, 08:02 AM
Mac do you get over the counter dog and cat chewable worming medications?

I have been using panacur(it contains fenbendazol) the fish actually just eat these if i crumble them into the water

in theory the drug shiuld be useful against both nematodes and protozoan parasites , at presetn i cant say it works as i have no ill fish
i can say that it doesnt appear to be a problem as far as palatability or toxicity at the dose's i have used

i will slowly titrate up
do you have shirley's? bob martins? things like that available in australia

andrew

mistakes r crucial
Sun Jan 14, 2007, 12:52 AM
Hi Andrew,

Apologies for the delay in replying, been flat out just lately. I can remember my Father using Bob martin's 30 years ago on his greyhounds but no, I don't think we get them over here.

As far as Ivomec is concerned it was shock horror this morning. My mate rang me just about in tears, the Ivomec, for some reason, has reacted with his water and killed $20,000 of fish. He's lost all his Zebra Plecs that were just about at breeding age, a load of L333's, around 15 grands worth of pepps and a breeding pair of Discus. :cry: I just felt sick in the gut.
MAC

samir
Sun Jan 14, 2007, 05:28 AM
sorry to hear about that :(

here's a link for Panacur (Fenbendazole) drench.
http://www.wormboss.com.au/LivePage.aspx?PageId=729
a lot of people do use it for discus without any ill effects.
I did look for Panacur for dogs a few months ago but couldn't find it anywhere.

mistakes r crucial
Mon Jan 15, 2007, 04:33 AM
Edit: Incorrect information below, sorry but he's very old LOL! He used the Ivomec without any problem. It is Doxycycline Hydrochloride that has killed the fish. The rate he was told to dose is the same as below, 1.8gms per litre of water.
MAC

Andrew (Fishgeek) and any other vets we have on the forum,

Re the above post.

I visited the friend that lost all his fish this morning and he told me the dosages that were recommended to him and I find them simply unbelievable. I am no vet but he was told to administer the drug at the rate of 1.8gms per litre of water. When he told me this over the phone earlier I said that he must have meant milligrams and not grams. He confirmed he meant grams and when I saw the container it was there for all to see in writing, 1.8 grams per litre. In other words, he used 1.8kg of this drug in 1800 litres of water! Maybe this is right but I would be very grateful if this can be confirmed by one of our professionals. I find it very, very hard to believe.
MAC

Merrilyn
Mon Jan 15, 2007, 06:10 AM
OMG :shock: Nigel, I'm so sorry to hear about your mate's fish.

What was the drug supposed to be treating?

And, like you, I find such a high dose difficult to believe.

I'll send a PM to Mike, another one of our members who is also a vet, and ask his opinion.

samir
Mon Jan 15, 2007, 06:57 AM
The dosage should be 18 mg/l and not 1.8 mg or 1.8 grams (which is 100 times the recommended dose.)
Its really sad that he had to lose all his fish, probably the person typing it in made an error. no point using tetracycline group, they hardly work nowadays.

mistakes r crucial
Mon Jan 15, 2007, 07:05 AM
Thanks everyone. Stupid thing is I now have convincing information, as Samir said, that this drug is just about useless in water anyway. It could well have been a typo too but it plainly states on the label, 1.8gms per litre. No wonder it killed them! The mate even thought the dose was very high and asked for confirmation and he got it, it was confirmed that it was the correct dosage. What happens now I've no idea but I suspect the word insurance may crop in to a conversation or two.
MAC

mistakes r crucial
Mon Jan 15, 2007, 07:24 AM
It was treating a bacterial infection in the Pepps that was found via autopsy. My mate was losing the odd young Peppermint which he had never done before and wanted to find out why. This was the answer he was given, some answer.
MAC

samir
Mon Jan 15, 2007, 07:56 AM
its absolutely shocking. i cannot even begin to imagine the time he must have spent collecting all that stock. must be absolutely devastating.:(

maybe we should have a topic with recommended dosages for antibacterials/medications/baths etc

i use amoxicillin and erythromycin with the recommended dose from the following link with no ill effects. oral works great, the baths are messy, ineffective and kill the filtration.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA08400.pdf

fishgeek
Mon Jan 22, 2007, 10:30 PM
i can find no written reference with a dose for doxycycline in my 3 texts

yes it is a tetracycline, and no that doesn't mean the dose is the same for all drugs from the family

tetracyclines have been widely abused in ornamental fish hobby for years
certainy there has been more recent investigations into marine use of tetracyclines that suggests it is the chelation by mineral salts in water that reduces the effectiveness of tetracycline in these systems, consequntly culture and sensitivty of suspect organisms on marine salt enriched agars has shown significantly increased resistance to these medications
understanding it's pharmocdynamics in aquatic enviroments is therefore essential

yes light degrades tetracyclines
yes harder waters , essentially calcium and magnesium will bind tetracyclines

i personally dont think tetracyclines are much use in aquatics at all

do we know the actual percentage of doxycycline in the powder supplied?
i somehow doubt that it is 100% pure doxycycline

samir where have you gotten your dose for doxycycline, did i just miss it on the link?
if the powder supplied is 1% it would fit your dose(just playing devils advocate)

i have published reference dose's for oxytetracycline ranging from 10-400mgs/l in water depending on usage ( this is of the active medication) not a base salt or other. this is something that has concerned me since visiting the internet and reading fish forums

the huge monetary loss obviously is something worth pursuing, unfortunately the fish can not be easily compensated
with the sums involved i assume proffessional advice was sought and paid for, if this advice is shown to be incorrect you are intitled to compensation
any business should have some form of proffesional indemnity or liability insurance so the proffesional if they have made a mistake (whilst not legally advisable to accept liability) should in my opinion have no problem being honest and decent about sorting a mistake

just my two pence
andrew

ps what lab do they use for there bacteriology? this facility should have most recent literature/published data on antibiotic dosing etc

mistakes r crucial
Tue Jan 23, 2007, 01:38 AM
Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. As far as I can remember the percentage of Doxy was 4%. After God knows how many tests it would appear that it was the filler that killed his fish and not the drug itself. I went up and took a look for myself and I've never seen anything like it and hope I never do again! There was so much white slimy fungus in his system it's no surprise all his fish perished. You could not see through the water and even after dismantling the whole system, cleaning it and then pumping 15,000 litres of fresh water through it there were still huge lumps of the stuff floating around, incredible.

I can't see that the vet has done anything wrong because the dosage she recommended included the filler and that's why it seemed rediculously high. However, IMO, a vet of that usual quality, experience and knowledge should have known the possible outcomes using a particular brand of drug in water. My friend has put it all in the "too hard basket" and down to experience. It's just a good job that he's not financially challenged and has plenty of passion for his hobby of 50 years.
MAC

samir
Tue Jan 23, 2007, 02:23 AM
my old vet said the dose in this case would more likely be 18mg/l if one absolutely had to use it in water. he said it should be used as an injection not in water.

fishgeek
Tue Jan 23, 2007, 08:11 AM
mac like i said , vet should have some liability insurance and there maybe ways of recieving compensation that do not cost the vet significantly

whilst working in the uk , i was called to a calfing , i was young and inexperienced , it was 2 in the morning , i couldnt get the calf out and went to call my boss, when i returned the farmer had managed

being young i didnt check the uterus or mother i just sighed with relief and acceted the offer of a beer before heading home to bed

2 days later boss checked cow with uterine tear and subsequent abdomenal infection, cow was destroyed and boss paid out on insurance to keep the peace

i know it doesnt sound ideal and i would still ask the person supplying advice whether there is a mutually acceptable recourse to compensation

andrew

while we are here has anyone a list of decent refrences for this things they might like to publish
andrerw


some carbohydrate? leading to bacterial bloom and subsequent low oxygen water? just a guess

mistakes r crucial
Tue Jan 23, 2007, 09:44 PM
I think that's a very good guess Andrew.
MAC

elvip
Tue Jan 23, 2007, 11:18 PM
Hi MAC,
So sorry to hear about your friend's loss :cry:
I know what it is like to lose a lot of fish, but certainly not on a scale like that - scary!! :shock:
WRT Doxycycline - it is dosed in mg in humans, and therefore I can't imagine it being used in grams in fish - filler or no filler!!
Just my two cents worth!!
Elvip

mistakes r crucial
Wed Jan 24, 2007, 07:43 AM
Yeah I know Elvira. I've spoken to the mate again today and made him aware of all the comments here but it's all too hard and for reasons I'm not inclined to discuss in public. He's happy to put it down to experience and start again. To be frank, 20 grand is not going to change this guys lifestyle (lucky him) so he's just gearing up again. He's one helll of a breeder so I'm just grateful he has attitude and passion, he would be a real loss to this hobby.
MAC

fishgeek
Wed Jan 24, 2007, 02:49 PM
sounds like a nice guy who appreciates someone trying there best doesn't always get it right

i wish i had more clients like him

andrew

elvip
Wed Jan 24, 2007, 09:51 PM
It's good to know MAC that he isn't giving up - as we all know there are times you just want to bang your head on the wall and wonder why you bother trying at all!! :wink:
But you have to keep persisiting - the nature of the game.
It is the passoon for the fish and this hobby that keep us going!!
Good luck to him :D
Cheers
Elvip

mistakes r crucial
Sat Jan 27, 2007, 08:15 PM
Nearly 2 weeks later and the poor buggar is still pulling slimey crap out of his system. Notwithstanding the loss of fish, the work this episode has created has been enormous. He has about 20 tanks on this particular system and has had to disconnect every single pipe, bulk head, inlet and outlet and blow them out with a high pressure hose because the normal garden hose wouldn't cut it. Anyone that has built a system I'm sure will appreciate what he's going through, makes me sweat just thinking about it!
MAC